CHAdeMO adapter wait frustration

[stopcrazypp]

The CHAdeMO connector itself is designed to handle up to 200A (~90kW in real life, 100kW on paper), though current implementations are limited to 125A, so there really is no significant deficiency in power handling compared to J1772-combo or current implementations of SuperChargers (though that is soon changing with SuperCharging going up to 120kW any day now).

Small correction: The CHAdeMO SPEC can handle 200A. The CHAdeMO connector can't, even the "next gen" version is only up to 125A:
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_neo.html

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Sorry but I think you are mistaken as the least powerful CHADeMO is 40KW which is double the power of the most powerful level 2 charger. And i have yet to find ANY level public charger over 7KW while there are many CHADeMO stations in the area.

The least powerful CHAdeMO charger is 25kW.
http://www.americas.fujielectric.com/systems/ev-charger/dc-quick-chargers-electric-vehicles-ev

What Tesla is talking about in general is even with the paper 200A limit of CHAdeMO the Model S is limited to 80kW (400V*200A). The implemented 125A limit of CHAdeMO would push that down to 50kW (400V*125A). If the article Scottf posted is correct, GM/BMW has a 200A charger in testing already:
http://insideevs.com/gm-and-bmw-joi...ting-on-dc-combo-fast-charge-stations-wvideo/

 

[doug]

There's an amazing concentration in Tennessee...

Perhaps because of the Nissan plant.

 

[cwerdna]

Perhaps because of the Nissan plant.

And because Nissan moved their US headquarters to TN from So Cal.

Nissan Moving North American Headquarters
Nissan Workers Lament Move - Los Angeles Times
From http://www.nissanusa.com/about/corporate-info:

Nissan North America
Nissan first came to the United States to sell vehicles in 1958 and began importing and making Datsun vehicles in the United States under the Nissan Motor Corporation, U.S.A. (NMC), name in 1960. In 1990, Nissan North America Inc. (NNA), was created to coordinate all of Nissan's various activities in North America to enhance the design, development, manufacturing, and marketing of Nissan vehicles. In 1998, the two organizations merged operations under the Nissan North America, Inc., name. NNA's mission is to provide all Nissan and Infiniti employees and dealers with the tools they need for constant improvement and consumer satisfaction. Headquartered in Franklin, Tennessee, NNA coordinates all operations in the United States, Canada, and Mexico including automotive styling, consumer, and corporate financing and engineering.


Nissan North America Inc.
One Nissan Way
Franklin, TN 37067
Phone: (615) 725-1000
...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just to confirm what I've said above, I've finally tracked down one of the quotes where Tesla (or in this case JB Straubel) state that they are using J1772-DC for the signalling and electrical protocols: http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11923 - it's just the plug shape that's different. I'm pretty sure I've seen the same statement made on earlier occasions too.

Yes, it's well established that Tesla is "100% compatible" according to Mr. Straubel, however it's obvious that common pins for AC and DC are not 100% compatible.

 

[arg]

Yes, it's well established that Tesla is "100% compatible" according to Mr. Straubel, however it's obvious that common pins for AC and DC are not 100% compatible.

Well, J1772 DC level 1 already has common pins for AC and DC, so that isn't an incompatibility.

During the J1772 DC negotiation at startup, the EVSE can say whether it offers DC over the 'core pins' (ie. the pins present on an ordinary J1772 plug), or over the extra pins only present in the Frankenplug (the EVSE can also offer to deliver AC), and then the EV says which one it wants. There is also an option in the protocol for "DC_unique" (ie. a proprietary connector) which might be what Tesla are using.

So, while it's possible that Tesla have done something incompatible (perhaps inadvertently), it does seem likely that it really is just a matter of the different connector. It wouldn't take all that much work to prove this one way or the other.

It seems to me that the main impediment to a third-party CHAdeMO adapter is knowing what Tesla are planning from a commercial perspective, because any 3rd-party product would involve significant investment and that would be hard to justify when there's a risk that Tesla will suddenly come out with a (subsidized) adapter of their own that's half the price and in a more attractive form-factor.

The reason I say it's a significant investment is mainly on account of the need for regulatory testing/approvals - UL listing etc. for North America, CE marking for Europe - which are probably time consuming and expensive. The actual engineering doesn't look that hard, but unfortunately this isn't the kind of product where you can just knock out a few rough prototypes and see if anybody wants to buy them

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, J1772 DC level 1 already has common pins for AC and DC, so that isn't an incompatibility.

I haven't heard even murmurs of this "SAE J1772 DC level 1" deployment, so I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon.

It seems to me that the main impediment to a third-party CHAdeMO adapter is knowing what Tesla are planning from a commercial perspective, because any 3rd-party product would involve significant investment and that would be hard to justify when there's a risk that Tesla will suddenly come out with a (subsidized) adapter of their own that's half the price and in a more attractive form-factor.

Big risk, but all the relatively cheap research can be done waiting for Tesla to make the next move.

The reason I say it's a significant investment is mainly on account of the need for regulatory testing/approvals - UL listing etc. for North America, CE marking for Europe - which are probably time consuming and expensive. The actual engineering doesn't look that hard, but unfortunately this isn't the kind of product where you can just knock out a few rough prototypes and see if anybody wants to buy them

I would guess $20k to $50k for UL.

 

[bhuwan]

Long thread - is it safe to say that the ChAdeMO 's are compatibile with the MS? No Adapters,etc?

 

[arg]

I haven't heard even murmurs of this "SAE J1772 DC level 1" deployment, so I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon.

No, I'd not heard anything about it either until I read the spec, and likely there's nobody deploying it at all currently, but I was responding to your concern that Tesla's use of shared pins for AC/DC meant Tesla were doing something that wasn't 100% J1772.

Big risk, but all the relatively cheap research can be done waiting for Tesla to make the next move.

Absolutely agreed. I'm trying to find a way to get at the CHAdeMO specs cheaper than paying the $5000 membership. Supposedly there's the public version at draft status in IEC. While it would probably be possible to make something work just by reverse engineering, I don't think you could write up the safety case without knowing the full details of how CHAdeMO is supposed to work.

I would guess $20k to $50k for UL.

I was guessing $50k, but it's a wild guess without having done the research. One problem is that a unique product is always harder to approve than one for which there are established assessment criteria, and the adapter isn't either a conventional EVSE nor a car to be charged.

My gut feeling is that the natural price for this adaptor is about $2000, but a small-volume build isn't going to be able to get there. If one could find customers for 100 units at $5000 a piece, then it ought to be feasible. But I'm not sure who would pay that much.

 

[hiroshiy]

@arg: There is a JIS standard of CHAdeMO in English as I have a Japanese version. It's something like SAE in Japan. It was $70 for a PDF.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Doug_G]

Long thread - is it safe to say that the ChAdeMO 's are compatibile with the MS? No Adapters,etc?

No. The opposite of what you said.

 

[Babylonfive]

I agree about the engineering of a third-party adapter -- the risk of a Tesla design ultimately begin available WW is likely and kills the product viability.
Also, the testing and validation steps are high-risk without interaction with Tesla. Imagine if Tesla simply says that the 3rd party adapter isn't supported... sunk.

 

[arg]

@arg: There is a JIS standard of CHAdeMO in English as I have a Japanese version. It's something like SAE in Japan. It was $70 for a PDF.

Thanks.

I have found "TS D 0007:2012" on the JSA website, and also at the usual agents like IHS Global, but all of them only offer it in Japanese language - which unfortunately I am unable to read to a useful level.

Is that the same document as you have, or is there another one I have missed?

 

[hiroshiy]

I thought I had a choice of English version as well. Will check tomorrow morning and post the link here.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[TonyWilliams]

One positive thing for EV consumers and tinkerers is that the threat of Frankenug last summer made CHAdeMO open their product August 2012. Direct action / response.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One positive thing for EV consumers and tinkerers is that the threat of Frankenug last summer made CHAdeMO open their product August 2012. Direct action / response.

That's probably one of the reasons why Tesla (and others) didn't go with CHAdeMO. You're really at the mercy of TEPCO unless the standard is open (in which case any patent licensing costs at least follows FRAND principles). In fact, we didn't even hear anything about Tesla offering a CHAdeMO adapter until after CHAdeMO announced the move to open it up.

 

[hiroshiy]

@arg: I'm sorry that was my misunderstanding. It was planned to publish English version of CHAdeMO specification (JIS technical standard TS D0007) in 2012 but is not available on the store. I requested more details about the English version availability to the association and hopefully get back to you when they respond.

 

[arg]

@arg: I'm sorry that was my misunderstanding. It was planned to publish English version of CHAdeMO specification (JIS technical standard TS D0007) in 2012 but is not available on the store. I requested more details about the English version availability to the association and hopefully get back to you when they respond.

Thank you!

Meantime, I've got hold of the Committee Draft versions of IEC 61851-23 and IEC 61851-24, but they are rather incomplete and also hard to read because they are written in a style that pretends there's one consistent architecture that just happens to have 3 (!) different ways of implementing it, rather than the truth that it's a mashing together of three independently developed specifications. I believe the 3rd one is the Chinese standard, which appears to be somewhat similar to CHAdeMO but incompatible.

Probably I need the ballot comments that I can see from the IEC website is a large document, but not easily available to non-members.

 

[LagunaHJames]

I paid $700 extra for a CHAdeMO plug for my Nissan Leaf when I got it in May 2011 but have yet to use it since there are no CHAdeMO charging units near me in Orange County, CA. I charge my Model S with the J1772 adapter using the wall charger I purchased when I got my Leaf. I am very excited about the Super Charger network but would still love a CHAdeMO adapter to use with my Model S.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I paid $700 extra for a CHAdeMO plug for my Nissan Leaf when I got it in May 2011 but have yet to use it since there are no CHAdeMO charging units near me in Orange County, CA. I charge my Model S with the J1772 adapter using the wall charger I purchased when I got my Leaf. I am very excited about the Super Charger network but would still love a CHAdeMO adapter to use with my Model S.

There's one in San Juan Capistrano since Nov 2012. The first one on the ChargePoint network. We will be having a little party there on July 7, 4pm-8pm. Stop by and check it out.

BC2BC-party-SJC.EventBrite.com

 

[hiroshiy]

@arg: I've contacted Chademo Association and they have English draft but not finaliazed one. They will publish English version next month. I'll PM you...