(Since I don't see how to just edit my earlier post ...)
http://www.afdc.energy.gov has an alternate Fuels Data Center map, which shows a LOT more stations. Filter the search down to "DC Fast". Basically all the ones in the north west are CHADeMO
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http://www.afdc.energy.gov has an alternate Fuels Data Center map, which shows a LOT more stations. Filter the search down to "DC Fast". Basically all the ones in the north west are CHADeMO
NigelM
Recovering Member
No, I was curious how many Chademo chargers there are as I've never seen even one in >2years driving electric. Had a hard time finding any maps except the one I posted which seemed to explain why dhrivnak had seen so many.
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Thanks. Yeah, that also explains why there's a few U.S. folks who'd love a Chademo adaptor and most others who couldn't care less. If I lived in Tennessee or the North West I'd want one also.
OK, enough off topic, back to Brian's list.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Wow, what a bunch of misinformation. Did you find that map at Faux Nooze? There's zero in Southern California?
I think there are 46 CHAdeMO chargers in Oregon alone. Thanks for the FUD.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Trying to understand why people feel strongly about Chademo I googled "Chademo locations" and the maps are horribly poor. Exploding at anyone who points that out isn't going to get you much empathy.
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I think there is an official map data from CHAdeMO association here. I might be wrong but I think they are trying to keep the location data up to date. If this is incomplete I can ask them why.
http://www.chademo.com/kml/CHAdeMO_map_in_130321.kml - Mapy Google
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http://www.chademo.com/kml/CHAdeMO_map_in_130321.kml - Mapy Google
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Wow, you actually got that link working. The one on the CHAdeMO website (at least the older version) is actually broken (first link when you search "CHAdeMO maps" in google):
http://www.chademo.com/04_maps.html
The file date on the map you posted is March 21, 2013, so it's up to date.
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Yeah, the google results when looking for CHAdeMO maps is a mess. Previously I relied more on Recargo (now Plug-share) but the map hiroshiy posted is the "official" one that should include all CHAdeMO chargers (public or not).
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Real-life adapter frustration:
I estimate not having a CHAdeMO adapter has cost me 25 hours since I got my Model S. I am in California right now and will head back towards Seattle along 101 on Sunday, that will waste another 6 hours or so. Actually it is worse than that as I could make the trip in two days with a CHAdeMO adapter, but charging at 30-40A is going to make me spend a whole extra day on this trip.
And before somebody chimes in that all I have to do is be patient and wait for Superchargers, that is not true as I have pointed out several times upthread. Even though Superchargers are far superior to CHAdeMO stations, there are many routes that Superchargers are never slated to cover, and this is one of them. But CHADeMO stations are already there, in fact I will spend many hours staring at them as I charge 3' away at 6kw. Sure you can GET to the OR/WA coast from a future supercharger site. But you can't drive along it.
I already owned two EVs and had no need for a car like the S. I was only interested in the S because it could allow me to take road trips without using gas or waiting for L2 charging. I started talking to Tesla about a CHAdeMO adapter 2 years ago because I knew I would need it to get around. I did not finalize my order for the Model S until Tesla promised it would be "omnivorous" with regards to charging options, and one employee told me he had seen an adapter. The adapter is still not available a year later, and I have no idea if it ever will be. This is not a hypothetical desire; it is real-life and it really sucks.
Especially when I get home and my gas-driving friends ask me how long the trip took, and then smile smugly. Forcing me to use L2 when DC is available is not helping with Tesla's mission.
I estimate not having a CHAdeMO adapter has cost me 25 hours since I got my Model S. I am in California right now and will head back towards Seattle along 101 on Sunday, that will waste another 6 hours or so. Actually it is worse than that as I could make the trip in two days with a CHAdeMO adapter, but charging at 30-40A is going to make me spend a whole extra day on this trip.
And before somebody chimes in that all I have to do is be patient and wait for Superchargers, that is not true as I have pointed out several times upthread. Even though Superchargers are far superior to CHAdeMO stations, there are many routes that Superchargers are never slated to cover, and this is one of them. But CHADeMO stations are already there, in fact I will spend many hours staring at them as I charge 3' away at 6kw. Sure you can GET to the OR/WA coast from a future supercharger site. But you can't drive along it.
I already owned two EVs and had no need for a car like the S. I was only interested in the S because it could allow me to take road trips without using gas or waiting for L2 charging. I started talking to Tesla about a CHAdeMO adapter 2 years ago because I knew I would need it to get around. I did not finalize my order for the Model S until Tesla promised it would be "omnivorous" with regards to charging options, and one employee told me he had seen an adapter. The adapter is still not available a year later, and I have no idea if it ever will be. This is not a hypothetical desire; it is real-life and it really sucks.
Especially when I get home and my gas-driving friends ask me how long the trip took, and then smile smugly. Forcing me to use L2 when DC is available is not helping with Tesla's mission.
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TonyWilliams
Active Member
Ok, sorry. Probably too aggressive, with bad form. Mea culpa. I honestly thought it was yet another intentional attack on CHAdeMO.
We get plenty of "dismissives" on this thread and forum of how few CHAdeMOs stations there are, completely overlooking that there are about 20 total Tesla DC chargers in the entire world and exactly ONE public Frankeplug charger near Phoenix that doesn't even work. There are "about" 200 CHAdeMO chargers in the USA, most of which are on the west coast (where electric cars actually sell) and in Tennessee (where the Nissan LEAF is actually built). CHAdeMO Association estimates 4000 total worldwide by the end of the year, and will "about" double the amount in the USA.
I'm rooting for Tesla, believe me. I think their whole program is awesome; so awesome, I'm starting to worry that they could actually monopolize DC quick charging in the USA. The same fears GM and the Germans had when they saw Nissan leaping out front of the EV market with no competition. So, years late to the game, GM and the Germans have a proposed a "new standard". I suspect Germany will be swamped and monopolized with German spec Frankenplugs to fend off any outside competition. That won't, in my humble opinion, be the case in North America or Japan.
CHAdeMO is the "real deal", already spec'd for 100kW (200 amps at 500 volts), available worldwide in a single standard (Frankenplug will have a GM/USA spec, and German spec), already almost 3000 worldwide with almost 100,000 cars equipped to use it (and growing at thousands per month) and is capable of feeding power from the EV's battery. Still zero Frankenplug cars and that one non-working charger.
Go back through this thread, and other threads in the forum, where the Frankenplug supporters make all kinds of "press release" statements of the super duper Frankenplug is so awesome-o that CHAdeMO doesn't have a chance. I think Frankenplug is as Dead On Arrival as hydrogen powered cars are (that we will be getting from at least Toyota and Honda, and maybe BMW, around 2015). All the public money spent on these distractors takes away from building a uniform, robust public quick charge infrastructure, IMHO.
I'm reasonably confident that Nissan and Tesla both will hold the course, and Frankenplug will be the has-been that folks will be able to put in trivia games in the future.
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It's sad, because people with the need like you (and me in the future) "get it". Lets wait to see exactly what is offered in Japan, and if Tesla does not offer an adapter in the USA at the same time, or shortly thereafter, you'll have your answer.
I'm extremely confident that folks will take matters into their own hands after that.
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What happened is that the post was originally in a different thread. The moderator moved it to this thread, because it was out of topic on the other one.
But in the thread where he made the post, there was not enough context for him to understand why it was a big deal. And then you read it in this thread where the context should be obvious, and you then read something he didn't mean to say.
Whoops. Ah well.
@stopcrazypp: they updated CHAdeMO assiciation website a few months ago, and the old pages weren't seem to be removed 
Tesla will announce the prices in Japan next month so hopefully more information about the adapter, without which Tesla will not be able to sell enough cars here. We currently have 1400 public CHAdeMO chargers around Japan, several of them on major highway rest areas.
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Tesla will announce the prices in Japan next month so hopefully more information about the adapter, without which Tesla will not be able to sell enough cars here. We currently have 1400 public CHAdeMO chargers around Japan, several of them on major highway rest areas.
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For the avoidance of doubt, I acknowledge that there's a fair number of CHAdeMO out there, that an adapter would be highly useful right now to a significant subset of Tesla owners, and that not having one is obviously frustrating (maybe even more frustrating than the situation of those of us in other markets who can't even order our cars yet :smile
.However....
This is false arithmetic: you can't get peak power for a DC charger by multiplying peak voltage by peak current, since you never get both at the same time (peak voltage has to be somewhat above the battery voltage at 100% charge, and you only get peak current at lower states of charge). When charging a Model S, the theoretical max power is going to be somewhere in the region of 75kW (375V * 200A).
J1772-DC level 2 ("Frankenplug") has exactly the same power limitations (nominal 200A/500V). Looking at the two dispassionately (disregarding installed base, political factors etc), there's not a huge lot to chose between them. J1772's PLC is a bit more technically elegant/robust than CHAdeMO's CAN, but harder to implement in small volume. The Frankenplug appears less clunky to handle (from its dimensions - I've not had the opportunity to handle one), but again not by a huge amount.
So it's fairly easy to see why Tesla, faced with two unsatisfactory options, decided to go with their own connector. Clearly J1772 compatibility was easier for them to achieve in their connector format than CHAdeMO (fewer pins).
It seems likely that adapters from both to Tesla plug will ultimately exist - the specifications are there for third parties to produce them even if Tesla don't choose to do so themselves. The CHAdeMO one is bound to be large and expensive as it has to be a brick + cable format; maybe if you limit the max power you could make it comparable to an HPWC with a shorter cable and a bigger box to house the CHAdeMO inlet - seems inconceivable it could come in less than the HPWC cost. J1772-DC L2 adapter will be small-er and cheap-er: the question is by how much.
If the J1227-DC-L2 adapter can be made as a simple mechanical plug adapter like the existing J1772-AC, then it's a significantly better solution both for Telsa owners and for the charging network operators (on the basis that more people will carry the adapter if it is $200 rather than $2000). If this adaptor also ends up as a brick + cable, then I agree with you that CHAdeMO wins by default - there's no point in bucking the trend for something that offers no advantage to anyone.
How this all plays out probably depends on the attitude of the charger network operators. Although you (reasonably) point to the installed base of CHAdeMO chargers as a major factor, there's also Tesla's installed base of cars to consider. The network operators have a big investment in chargers (and ongoing costs for their high-capacity grid connections) which are probably not yet paying their way: Tesla drivers are a big potential source of revenue - probably even more so than the relative share of delivered cars would suggest since the Model S is a much more practical vehicle for regular long-distance travel than a Leaf. So they should be highly motivated to do what is needed to get them access to that market. This won't apply to the chargers installed at Nissan dealers, but those are probably not the ones in the most interesting locations anyhow (and availability to non-Nissan vehicles is questionable).
One way this can play out is for Tesla to produce the cheap J1772-DC adapter, and the charging network operators upgrade their chargers to dual-headed CHAdeMO/J1772-DC.
Another possible outcome is that they upgrade them to dual CHAdeMO-Tesla, possibly by simply installing a post-mounted CHAdeMO->Tesla adapter adjacent to the existing charging station. Since there are likely more cars than charging stations (if not, the station economics must be suspect!), this is cheaper than persuading the drivers to buy and carry the expensive adapter.
There is also the question of J1772-DC level 1 - I've not seen much talk about it (and there's certainly zero stations in the wild), so it's not clear if it could be something significant or just a red herring. This allows up to 80A over the same connector as J1772, with the exception that the car end is required to have a lock to prevent removal of the connector during charging. With similar arithmetic to the above, this gives a max of 30kW when charging a Model S. I've not been able to find a good resource for the actual ratings of the installed base of CHAdeMO chargers (and I'm not sure that even looking at their rating plate will tell you, since they will be limited by the power source that they are hooked up to in the same way as a Tesla HPWC). There's a paper from Fuji Fiji arguing that 25kW is the 'sweet spot' for CHAdeMO installations on the grounds of supply cost. If there's a significant population of these smaller chargers, retro-fitting them with a second head for J1772-DC-L1 (or a static adapter, rather than requiring the driver to carry one) could be attractive, as they immediately work with the Model S using the existing J1772 adapter, or one very like it (if the locking issue can be resolved).
NigelM
Recovering Member
Kudos. We're good.
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Tesla is a company with limited resource and until recently had been totally focused on getting cars out the factory door. Looking at all the Chademo maps there's no doubt that in the U.S. an adaptor is on the wish list for a subset of Model S owners. Tesla needs to tackle Superchargers first for the huge areas of the country that don't have Chademo chargers, but as Tesla gets more opportunity to expand focus on different things I'd be pretty certain that an adaptor will appear in the U.S.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
For the avoidance of doubt, I acknowledge that there's a fair number of CHAdeMO out there, that an adapter would be highly useful right now to a significant subset of Tesla owners, and that not having one is obviously frustrating (maybe even more frustrating than the situation of those of us in other markets who can't even order our cars yet :smile
I hope you get your car soon!! Just think of all the speeding tickets that you're not getting while not driving a Model S.
Eh, not exactly. On current production cars, like LEAF, Tesla Model S and Rav4 EV, with about 400 volt batteries, there are limits to using 500 volts to charge. Future cars will likely be at 500 volts, and well beyond.
On the LEAF, even with the battery pack depleted to below 300 volts, the car will instruct the DC charger to supply 388 volts, ramping up to 395 volts. The maximum pack voltage is currently 96 cell pairs * 4.1 volts per cell pair = 393.6 volts.
So, to refute your premise, yes, 100kW is possible with CHAdeMO.
Yes, that has been hashed over many times, and I agree. The two are far more similar than different, but specifically different enough to be incompatible. I wonder why?
Everybody bases that on the TERRIBLE Yazaki "aircraft refueling nozzle" that comes with most CHAdeMO chargers. Our company, EVoasis, owns and operates the very first Fuji 25kW charger in the USA, and it does NOT use that clunky disaster Yazaki. There are second and third generation nozzles coming from Yazaki and Sumitomo. Dyden and Fuji already have UL listed nozzles that are lighter, easier to use (push the button with your thumb to disconnect, just like J1772), and more compact.
So, given the clean slate in the world that there aren't almost 3000 of one charger and ZERO of another, and no existing cars to use any (instead of almost 100,000 versus ZERO), I doubt I would personally have much opinion on the matter. One of the other, but not both.
The charging installation business is current a huge loser financially. When folks just throw around "adding" a Frankenplug to existing designs, they have no idea how much that will cost. Sure it can be done, but who will pay for it? Governments that have already spent beau coup dollars/Euros/Pounds/Yen on existing DC charging certainly aren't too keen to cough up more money for virtually zero benefit. It's only because the GM/German auto block wanted a different standard. I'm sure it's ALL above table as to why (ok, I can't hide the sarcasm... I'm quite confident why).
So, who else will pay? That's the real problem Frankenplug USA has. In Germany, they made it easy for the German spec Frankenplug. They wrote it into law/rules/regulations, but we don't have that type of central government control in the USA over commerce. GM and their appendage, SAE, have put out all kinds of press releases and whispers into government leader's ears about how they unilaterally announced themselves the leader and the standard here in the USA. Thankfully for electric cars, that isn't selling well. If GM/SAE can't starve out CHAdeMO (they have tried), out populate CHAdeMO cars (not a chance with California ARB compliance car Spark EV, IMHO), or regulate them out of business, IT'S DEAD ON ARRIVAL.
Tesla could choose to change the specification AT WILL for both their Superchargers and cars to reject any third party hardware/software that may come to market.
I couldn't agree more, and we will wait until summer to see what Tesla has up their sleeve with a CHAdeMO adapter for Japan and USA, and presumably Europe (however, I understand there is some limitation on adapters, which is one reason Tesla uses the Menekkes Type 2 connector there).
Great idea... which Frankenplug station will I plug that in? The forecast for future Frankenplug installations (in comparison to both Tesla and CHAdeMO) is bleak, at best.
Something similar is already done at the Tesla Roadster charging stations in the USA, where at least one in Washington was a Model S adapter at the station.
Neat idea. Something to explore, I believe.
Was CHAdeMO finalized before or after J1772?
TEPCO : Press Release | Establishment of CHAdeMO Association
I realize the J1772 DC standard was finalized 2 years after CHAdeMO. I really hope Tesla supports CHAdeMO but do people really think there will be deployment of CHAdeMO chargers every 70 miles between major cities? That's the distance that would be needed to build out the inter-city travel network and support current generation Leafs.
TEPCO : Press Release | Establishment of CHAdeMO Association
I realize the J1772 DC standard was finalized 2 years after CHAdeMO. I really hope Tesla supports CHAdeMO but do people really think there will be deployment of CHAdeMO chargers every 70 miles between major cities? That's the distance that would be needed to build out the inter-city travel network and support current generation Leafs.
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LEAFs really need them no more than 50 miles apart - 50 miles range is about all you can expect on a 80% charge at 65 mph.
Thanks. There is a big need for the adapter (only in certain areas right now like WA, CA, Houston and Dallas, TN...etc). Still better than the Supercharger network is at this point of course but they started their buildout over 3 years ago and Tesla started last summer. It would be useful as a destination charging station in bigger cities if Tesla doesn't plan to ever provide Superchargers within cities.
Well, you can obviously get closer to the 100kW ideal by carefully designing your pack to be the right voltage, but you can never quite get there (and a >500V pack couldn't charge on today's CHAdeMO at all).
I'm also a bit suspicious of your LEAF numbers: does the cell voltage really only rise from 4.04 to 4.1 during charging?
I don't have the CHAdeMO spec, but I understand that it works the same way as J1772-DC: the car supplies a votage and a current request, which are maxima - charging then occurs at constant current as the voltage rises towards the target, then levels out at constant voltage with declining current. Hence with the pack at 300V, I might expect the car to request (say) 128A/388V for the bulk charge phase - with the actual voltage well below the target to start with.
Happy to be told I'm wrong here if you believe you are watching the actual pack voltage with your 388V figure.
Anyhow, in Tesla's case the display does seem to report the actual voltage during charging, and it's in the 375V region, so max through a hypothetical CHAdeMO adapter would be about 75kW. All of which is fairly academic since the actual deployed CHAdeMO stations are lower power than that: I only really raised it in the first place to note why Tesla didn't go with CHAdeMO (nor Frankenplug for the same reason).
Well, regardless of whether this situation has arisen through bad faith or just bad luck/judgement, someone's now got to pay for making the existing stations dual-capable - or else the market for public DC charging is just not viable.
It's clearly not cheap to add a second head to existing deployments, but it has to be cheaper than a complete new station. So if there isn't a business case for doubling your customer base (from leaf to telsla + leaf) by spending whatever it costs to add the 2nd head (or tethered adapter), then how is there a business case for adding any more sites?
And conversely, if there isn't a business case for adding a tethered adapter and recouping the cost by charging Tesla drivers for using it, then are those Tesla drivers really going to buy one each?
Admittedly, this doesn't say the 2nd head has to be a frankenplug one.
Obviously the could, but they've stated publicly that they use J1772-DC protocol and they've really no reason to block third-party chargers. Protecting the car from misbehaving chargers isn't a reason since this is part of the standard behaviour anyhow (monitoring the voltage/current from the EVSE and disconnecting if out of range). Preventing the superchargers from working with anything other than a Tesla car is a different case.
Ironically, the existance of just one J1772-DC station and a Tesla adapter to work with it would resolve this issue for a third-party CHAdeMO->Tesla adapter. Sourcing the plugs might be a problem, though if you restricted yourself to 80A (=30kW) you could remanufacture HPWCs or find a way of using the existing J1772 adapters.
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Tesla could cleverly avoid the CHAdeMO situation in the US by accelerating the Supercharger rollout in every area that has a lot of CHAdeMO - move up the schedule a year or two faster than is warranted.
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