CHAdeMO adapter wait frustration

[Palpatine]

I think Tesla battery is great for driving in the city, where you can charge your car in your garage. I think SuperCharge stations are excellence to get you to where you need to be but I see a REAL problem, after I get to my destination. How am I going to charge my Model S? I'm not at my garage anymore, SuperCharge stations are mostly locate outside the city, near the major highways, and I am in a strange city where I don't know place, or where to charge my car.

There are a lot of charging stations that have already been built in the city (like eVgo freedom Charge stations in Houston/Dallas area) with CHAdeMO DC fast charge that I could use to charge my car really quick when I'm out of town but I can't because we don't have an CHAdeMO adapter for our Model S.

Elon Musk has all the smart engineers from Tesla and SpaceX under him, I'm sure he can figure out how to make a simple CHAdeMO adapter that we can use to charge our Model S, with the existing charging infratructures that has already been built in most major cities.

I hoped that I'm not the only one to think like this. I'm not against Tesla or anything. I own the car for 3 months and love every moment of it. I just think that this is the only hurdle that Tesla have to overcome that will ease the range anxiety from most people.

CHAdeMO is not the only solution to the issue that you pose. There are plenty of different types of outlets you will find in the wild to recharge.
Tesla provides you with the most common adapters needed, NEMA 14-50 and J1772.
Those two will get you through most scenarios out there in the wild, for overnight recharging so you can get back to the highway and your next Supercharger.

http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters

I plan to buy the NEMA 10-30 and NEMA 14-30 adapters to go along with the others that come with the car.

 

[ChadS]

You forgot to mention 110V outlets, for when he's staying in the city for 3 days and not doing much driving.

I assume his point was that many CHAdeMO stations can charge at 50-60kW, much faster than the 10kW or less from the other solutions that you mention. They could be used as a "fill-up" before proceeding on his business, rather than having to stay there all night. There are cases where CHAdeMO is not available, and cases where CHAdeMO is not the only solution - but there are also cases where it is available, and it is the only solution.

 

[Gizmotoy]

You forgot to mention 110V outlets, for when he's staying in the city for 3 days and not doing much driving.

I assume his point was that many CHAdeMO stations can charge at 50-60kW, much faster than the 10kW or less from the other solutions that you mention. They could be used as a "fill-up" before proceeding on his business, rather than having to stay there all night. There are cases where CHAdeMO is not available, and cases where CHAdeMO is not the only solution - but there are also cases where it is available, and it is the only solution.

Exactly. Superchargers can get you to your destination. What happens once you're there? If you arrive late you can charge overnight, which is not a big deal using pretty much anything greater than a 110V outlet. If you need range to explore your destination, though, you're in trouble. You're probably stuck on 30A J1772 for a few hours. This would be where CHAdeMO would be usefu, especially since Tesla's shown no interest in Supercharging destinations so far, and we have no reason to expect they will in the future. It also benefits those without dual chargers, which is another plus.

 

[HP832]

I think "simple CHAdeMO adapter" is an oxymoron. The CHAdeMO connector/protocol itself is fairly complicated and we've already established a pin-to-pin adapter is not possible. It seems almost certain that any North American CHAdeMO adapter will come after the Japanese version, if it comes at all. If it's really a pin count issue (such that it requires the European port with 7 pins) then the US may never get one.

I'm sure it is very complicate to make this CHAdeMo adapter but when I said Simple, I meant for Elon Musk and his team at Tesla and SpaceX. They have done all the things that people consider impossible... even to NASA (reusable rockets) and Boeing (battery management). I will question everyone else, but Elon. Nothing is impossible to him.

- - - Updated - - -

You forgot to mention 110V outlets, for when he's staying in the city for 3 days and not doing much driving.

I assume his point was that many CHAdeMO stations can charge at 50-60kW, much faster than the 10kW or less from the other solutions that you mention. They could be used as a "fill-up" before proceeding on his business, rather than having to stay there all night. There are cases where CHAdeMO is not available, and cases where CHAdeMO is not the only solution - but there are also cases where it is available, and it is the only solution.

You are exactly right. Supercharge stations will get me to the city but i will only have 30-40 miles left on the battery range. I can't just park and charge the car for 6-8 hrs at any charging station and wait for it to charge while I can't go or do anything. CHAdeMO will charge almost as fast as the SuperCharge so I can get my battery fill up in no time. The infrastructures are already there in most cities and Elon has no plan to put the supercharge station in the city anytime soon so why not develop the CHAdeMO adapter to let us use the DC FAST charger from these CHAdeMO charging stations.

 

[dsm363]

I think and hope they are working on it. They have to for the Japanese market at least so maybe we have to wait until then.

 

[HP832]

Exactly. Superchargers can get you to your destination. What happens once you're there? If you arrive late you can charge overnight, which is not a big deal using pretty much anything greater than a 110V outlet. If you need range to explore your destination, though, you're in trouble. You're probably stuck on 30A J1772 for a few hours. This would be where CHAdeMO would be usefu, especially since Tesla's shown no interest in Supercharging destinations so far, and we have no reason to expect they will in the future. It also benefits those without dual chargers, which is another plus.

You are right, I did not notice how inconvenience it is to charge the car on the road, when all you could use is 30A or less. CHAdeMO infrastructure is already there, I could have fill up my battery in an hour or two, if I have the CHAdeMO adapter.

If Elon decided to make the CHAdeMO adapter for North America, he pretty much gave us the option of Supercharger stations in the city, without Tesla having to build one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm sure it is very complicate to make this CHAdeMo adapter but when I said Simple, I meant for Elon Musk and his team at Tesla and SpaceX. They have done all the things that people consider impossible... even to NASA (reusable rockets) and Boeing (battery management). I will question everyone else, but Elon. Nothing is impossible to him.

There are some things that actually are impossible though (esp. from a safety standpoint). The US Tesla connector only has 5 pins, CHAdeMO uses a minimum of 9. European Tesla connector has 7 pins.

The 2 power pins and ground pin make up 3 pins that can't be faked for any standard. The proximity pin is also shared among both SAE and ChadeMO.

For SAE, the only pin left is the analog control pilot. The digital signals go through the ground pin using PLC.
For ChadeMO there's still 5 pins left: 3 analog safety (1 "ready to charge" pin, 2 EV relay pins), 2 digital CAN bus signal pins.

The strategy for the European adapter is still relatively straightforward, have all 7 pins assigned to all the CHAdeMO pins except the 2 digital CAN bus pins. Then just have a component in the adapter to translate the PLC digital signal from the ground pin to the 2 digital CAN bus pins.

However, for the US version, you would still need to fake the 3 analog safety pins and it's iffy if that's safe and if it can pass safety certifications. If this is what's holding up the US adapter, then there might never be one made.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D5HTsDHEoF4/UFspUIESE_I/AAAAAAAAI-4/_6qf3WCFUHw/s1600/chademo-pins.jpg

But there is another option that's actually simple. And that's the SAE DC connector. It uses exactly the same 5 pins as the Tesla connector and JB said they support the same protocol. The adapter will be a simple pin-to-pin adapter (similar to the current J1772 adapter included with your car).

It'll take a while until dual connector (with both a CHAdeMO and SAE DC connector) stations are deployed, but once that happens, CHAdeMO will not be the only non-Tesla quick charge option. I've mentioned previously that Tesla's strategy may be waiting for those stations to come out and then pushing strongly for them. Then the CHAdeMO adapter would not be necessary in the US.

 

[Palpatine]

A bunch of stuff....

That is why people don't buy EVs. Intentional marketplace confusion. This is all BS. People want simplicity. They just want it to work. Screw it all. I am just sticking to Superchargers. Tesla has it figured out already.

Let the alphabet police screw around another 10 years on their "standards". I am opting out of all of that BS.

 

[cwerdna]

That is why people don't buy EVs. Intentional marketplace confusion. This is all BS. People want simplicity. They just want it to work. Screw it all. I am just sticking to Superchargers. Tesla has it figured out already.

Let the alphabet police screw around another 10 years on their "standards". I am opting out of all of that BS.

FWIW, (since I have a Leaf), J1772 for L1 and L2 charging works. Every mass market EV and PHEV has adopted it, except for Tesla but at least an adapter's supplied for the Model S and is available for the Roadster (since the current J1772 was finalized well after the Roadster first went on sale). Every EV and PHEV at my work charges using it, including a few Model S and a Roadster (both via adapters). All other do it w/o adapters.

For DC FC, there's CHAdeMO and Tesla's proprietary Supercharger standard. As we've stated earlier, CHAdeMO works on the world's most popular, best selling EV. J1772 does too, just like it does for the vehicles I mentioned.

We don't need Frankenplug (aka J1772 CCS/combo plug) nonsense which has almost all non-serious EV/PHEV players involved + only 1 serious wildcard: BMW, except their i3 will have a optional range extender engine.

 

[100thMonkey]

That is why people don't buy EVs. Intentional marketplace confusion. This is all BS. People want simplicity. They just want it to work. Screw it all. I am just sticking to Superchargers. Tesla has it figured out already.

Let the alphabet police screw around another 10 years on their "standards". I am opting out of all of that BS.

I was hoping I could get away with that attitude, but this summer I traveled with a 2 and a 4 year old in the car. we went up into Canada, out to Idaho, down to Santa Cruz CA, on a variety of trips. I can firmly say, that even when every planned super charger is in place, it won't be enough to make a CHAdeMO, and every other kind of adapter, obsolete, my time is just too valuable for me not to want to be able to utilize whatever the fastest charge option there is at the time. destination charging is the big challenge. CHAdeMO is all over WA and OR and as long as it is, I will want an adapter. I've got every adapter Tesla Makes, even a few third party adapters for more obscure plugs because Murphy's Law wins at the worst moments. It's always at the least convenient time in the worst place where you are pressed to get the fastest charge possible.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
FWIW, this is TonyWilliams' planning page for his BC2BC trip in his Leaf last year: My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - BC2BC Mexico to Canada via Electric Highway June 12-20, 2012. He did it in his Leaf w/J1772 (he had to use some adapters w/his EVSE(s)) and CHAdeMO, which helped him fly thru WA and OR.

 

[stopcrazypp]

We don't need Frankenplug (aka J1772 CCS/combo plug) nonsense which has almost all non-serious EV/PHEV players involved + only 1 serious wildcard: BMW, except their i3 will have a optional range extender engine.

Tesla's plug might need it as both their US and European connectors are based on CCS. We'll see what happens though.

We would not be in this mess if Yazaki designed their original connector to support both AC and DC charging (like Tesla's). Instead they opted for a separate large connector for DC (what's used in CHAdeMO today) and we're stuck with this.

 

[hiroshiy]

The reason why CHAdeMO chose to have DC only plug was that (I heard) AC charging is generally slower and if they make AC/DC plugs same, AC charging PHEVs will dominate those chargers, ellectively renders fast DC chargers useless.

 

[brianman]

The reason why CHAdeMO chose to have DC only plug was that (I heard) AC charging is generally slower and if they make AC/DC plugs same, AC charging PHEVs will dominate those chargers, ellectively renders fast DC chargers useless.

Reminds of the "we should have a slow-mode for Superchargers for 40 kWh cars" discussion.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The reason why CHAdeMO chose to have DC only plug was that (I heard) AC charging is generally slower and if they make AC/DC plugs same, AC charging PHEVs will dominate those chargers, ellectively renders fast DC chargers useless.

We have a version of this story here in the USA. Since Tesla was the company that promoted the SAE to adopt 80 amps for J1772-2009, now an 8 amp Chevy Spark can use the same plug as an 80 amp Model S.

It won't take a brain surgeon to figure out that slower speed, lower cost EVs will eventually outnumber high cost, high power consumer cars.

When the pins of my J1772 plug fried themselves in my car, it sure would have been nice to have a second separate plug like the LEAF has.

The original list of goofball reasons why Frankenplug was so much better than CHAdeMO was that cars could use one "fuel door" (which is great if you're only going to build converted oil burner cars).

One genuine Frankenplug on the back and an oil filler on the front:

 

[rfinn]

I live in Knoxville Tennessee and the only fast chargers for miles are CHadeMo and no adapter to use them so I can not travel far. Tesla has no plans to install any Super Chargers in this area.

 

[Chipper]

Actually, according to their map, they plan on one in 2015 for the Knoxville area as well as one here in Chattanooga. I don't care if there is one near home as I will be charged already, but I am looking forward to one in Knoxville for when I do trips to NC and VA.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The original list of goofball reasons why Frankenplug was so much better than CHAdeMO was that cars could use one "fuel door" (which is great if you're only going to build converted oil burner cars).

That's not a goofball reason. Tesla opted for a single socket too for the Model S even though it's a dedicated EV. With the dual socket you either need a very large door (like the Leaf) or dual like the iMIEV. Plus having a single protocol that can handle both is better than two separate ones as that lets you reuse pins and handshake hardware.

I don't think the concern about PHEVs hogging DC chargers is a valid concern either, as you can just have the chargers set to DC only and PHEVs won't be able to use them (no matter the connector). I suspect the more valid explanation is it reduces the connector/socket cost for PHEVs and AC-only BEVs (as they don't need large power pins). The CCS achieves with a single socket by offering backwards compatibility with the AC-only connector.

 

[100thMonkey]

That's not a goofball reason. Tesla opted for a single socket too for the Model S even though it's a dedicated EV. With the dual socket you either need a very large door (like the Leaf) or dual like the iMIEV. Plus having a single protocol that can handle both is better than two separate ones as that lets you reuse pins and handshake hardware...

simple solution to that, simply put the other door on the other side of the car behind the other reflector. I think Tony's assertion that an additional port gives redundancy if one breaks. All that said, CHAdeMO is very prone to user error leading to breakage. Tesla's port is way more ergonomic and intuitive, super easy and so far, pretty bomb proof. Still, no matter how great Tesla's better design is, a CHAdeMO adapter is imperative for places like the NW where CHAdeMO is sprouting up all over the place.

 

[stopcrazypp]

simple solution to that, simply put the other door on the other side of the car behind the other reflector.

The fact that this needs a "solution" shows it's a problem, not a feature. Plus if you take up the other side, the precludes being able to do the true mirrored dual connector solution that people suggested (when in the future the charging power of superchargers/battery pack is higher than the current single connector can handle).

I think Tony's assertion that an additional port gives redundancy if one breaks.

I think that's just a side effect, not a real feature. If the J1772 breaks you can't charge at home and the CHAdeMO doesn't help. Same vice-versa when on a roadtrip and CHAdeMO breaks. Simply designing a more robust connector is better than having two for redundancy.