Charging Infrastructure

[Norbert]

I certainly wouldn't drive there if I was staying for less than 24 hours.

I think that in a country like the UK, most people would not have a long enough journey for a short enough stay that a fast-charger would be required for city-centre locations. There will always be some, of course, but fast-chargers will tend to be predominantly at motorway locations.

Really? According to Google, it's just a 1 h 24 min drive. I'd imagine one would go for a concert, exhibition, other special event, or for very specific shopping (like a Tesla store).

Reference the earlier post and 2-hour charging en-route, I don't think I'd want to divert into a town centre to charge - I'd rather sit in a coffee bar or restaurant at the motorway services and be able to get right back on the road. I also think that if I have a journey such that I can't fast-charge enough to get to my destination in say 30 minutes then the EV is staying at home.

In the US, that would usually be a fast-food restaurant. You'd probably have to buy french fries every 20 minutes. :smile:

 

[Eberhard]

If those CHAdeMO DC-Chargingstation need 3-phase input at 480V then they are useless - i you can do already use 3-phase input in your car. It just because they want to make a business out of this - and we have to pay - with higher cost for charging (you have to pay twice for the juice and for the costly CHAdeMO-station). We have an existing infrastructure, just use it. in America, the grid needs an update to handle the increasing amount of electric cars - 3-phase will be first choice.

The idiotic discussion is - america need quickcharge like CHAdeMO because the one/split phase grid cannot handle higher power. The DC-Quickcharger like CHAdeMO need at least 480V 3-phase to handle the Load. Just kick the DC-Chargerstations off. Then you have what you need. Inexpensive and powerful 3-Phase charging - where you go. one/split phase at home. 3-phase at the hightways. And you car can handle both with one input-socket. Nissan Leaf and I-MiEV need booth. Though stupid.

DC-Charging makes only sense above 100kW, which is rarely needed.

 

[Norbert]

I think you'll see a mixture. Motorway chargers for the use that you describe, but also city centre chargers for taxis and other commercial vehicles.

Agree with the "mixture" part. I was wondering whether a fast charger also would support not-quite-so-fast mode. So 50 kW (or more) when needed, or if staying for a bit longer anyway, scale down to 30 kW or 20 kW...

 

[Eberhard]

A quick charger should be used to charge quick(name?) otherwise it would be blocked for other who may real need a quick charge. But you can go easily to a standard socket to charge slower.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

We have an existing infrastructure, just use it. in America, the grid needs an update to handle the increasing amount of electric cars - 3-phase will be first choice.

I don't think three phase will be first choice in US, UK or Japan because it is not readily available to the end user. I think you will see one phase and DC in these locations.

Mainland Europe has a lot of three phase available to the end user and I'm sure you will see some cars that support it. However, you will still see a lot of one phase and DC because it's already being deployed.

 

[Eberhard]

DC-Quickcharge need 3-phase input - skip the whole *sugar*, use 3-phase direct. 3-Phase is available in US too. But not in residential areas. But for the DC-Quickcharger they need 3-phase as an input.
Its more like an hen and egg problem. but it cannot be solved by adding the fox to the problem.

 

[TEG]

The idiotic discussion is - america need quickcharge like CHAdeMO because the one/split phase grid cannot handle higher power...

DC-Quickcharge need 3-phase input - skip the whole *sugar*...

I think some of your word choices are a bit off-putting...

In any case, some sort of "consumer friendly" interconnect between the high voltage and car is likely to be desired. They look for things like safety interconnects, moisture tolerance, connect / disconnect cycle life, ease of insert, etc. As far as I know most of the existing 3 phase connectors are not designed to handle this sort of "duty cycle" with proper safety for use by the general public.

If they were to make the high power 3-phase charger common in the vehicles, then what plug standard do consumers use to hook it to the grid?

 

[dpeilow]

Mennekes

 

[widodh]

Mennekes

Indeed, this one: http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/mennekesplug.jpg (Official name: VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2

Can handle up to 3-phase 63A. Like Eberhard said, 3-phase is really common here!

Every home/building in The Netherlands is equipped with 3-phases, normally it looks like this: http://blog.widodh.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/20110119_009.jpg

As you can see, the two extra phases are not used, but if you ask the utility company will connect you to those phases.

I don't like DC charging, since I don't want to pay for a really expensive charger (The Leaf charger is about 10k!!). 3-phase is really everywhere. A normal home has a capacity of 3x40A if you ask the utility company.

 

[Eberhard]

right Mennekes - there are already many of those station in germany available by RWE and others utility-companies.

 

[mpt]

3x40A

How much power is available at 3-phase 40A?

 

[dpeilow]

27680W

400V * 40A * sqrt3

 

[mpt]

27680W

400V * 40A * sqrt3

So, in very round numbers, about a 2hr charge for a roadster.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

So, in very round numbers, about a 2hr charge for a roadster.

yep, three phase is great and I'm really happy to see that it's supported by the Mennekes hardware (indeed, this is probably the connector we will support on our next generation charge point hardware). My whole point here is that three phase is very unlikely to become the standard power source for car connectors in the US, UK, or Japan. I think we just have to accept that for the fore'seeable future there will be no global standard for car connectors.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Does anyone have a list of cars that are expected to support three phase or DC fast charge?

 

[jkirkebo]

Every home/building in The Netherlands is equipped with 3-phases, normally it looks like this: http://blog.widodh.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/20110119_009.jpg

As you can see, the two extra phases are not used, but if you ask the utility company will connect you to those phases.

Weird. Most houses in Norway have 3-phase too (though most have only 230V 3~) and here all the phases are always used. Even if you do not have any 3-phase loads (I have two, heatpump & induction cooktop) the single-phase loads are distributed between the three phases.

Most houses here have 230V 3~ 63A, approx. 25kW.

 

[Nik]

Really? According to Google, it's just a 1 h 24 min drive. I'd imagine one would go for a concert, exhibition, other special event, or for very specific shopping (like a Tesla store).

That's what the train is for. £7/day congestion charge (EVs exempt) plus £10/hour? parking. Traffic speeds in the centre of London maybe 5mph.

In the US, that would usually be a fast-food restaurant. You'd probably have to buy french fries every 20 minutes. :smile:

Ha! I'll buy the fries if the charging is free (do I have to eat them too?)

 

[Norbert]

That's what the train is for. £7/day congestion charge (EVs exempt) plus £10/hour? parking. Traffic speeds in the centre of London maybe 5mph.

Public transportation is great, I use it a lot. Especially if it is electric. Park & Ride is also a fine thing. Not to forget bicycles, I'm currently in the process of selecting a bicycle which better fits my needs.

However. What has all that to do with replacing gas cars with EVs?

We currently have a quite strong momentum for EVs, but I think it won't go very far if limited to a "I just want to drive around in my suburb" (or "just on the main road") mentality. To gain wide acceptance of EVs, for which there probably never was a better time than now, a variety of perspectives is needed, based on practical realizations and use models which, by establishing facts, show that EVs will eventually be a full-scale alternative to gas cars. Including the ability to cause congestion in the centre of the city of London.

Ha! I'll buy the fries if the charging is free (do I have to eat them too?)

As far as I am concerned, you could use them as Lego blocks to build small objects while you are sitting there. I would feel like I have something better to do with my time, and I have read corresponding remarks here and there. My experience here is that many small and small-to-mid-sized cities in the vicinity of freeways (but not all of them) are easily accessible, have ample parking space, and are often growing their center's infrastructure a bit around taking advantage of this vicinity.

 

[doug]

yep, three phase is great and I'm really happy to see that it's supported by the Mennekes hardware (indeed, this is probably the connector we will support on our next generation charge point hardware). My whole point here is that three phase is very unlikely to become the standard power source for car connectors in the US, UK, or Japan. I think we just have to accept that for the fore'seeable future there will be no global standard for car connectors.

Of course Mennekes also supports single phase and, from what I've seen, is a much better designed connector than the Yazaki J1772. I really wish we'd adopt it as a global standard, but I think it's a lost cause at this point.

 

[TEG]

I guess with Mennekes you carry your own interconnect cord around with you.
Some might find that annoying, but less annoying than finding a charge spot with a damaged cord, or plug.
(In my experience with the old AVCON / J1772, I find quit a few of those public plugs starting to fall apart.)