Charging Infrastructure

[Norbert]

But do they really have to build their own?? I hope the use a common standard.

Depends, I guess, on several factors. They certainly have the expertise. Would they be able to build one for a significantly lower cost, would they want to be able to rely on their quality, and how much power will the Model S (and future cars) require to support its maximum charging speed? The first Model S rolling out of the factory might already push the envelope on currently *proposed* standards.

 

[dpeilow]

Government announces £400m electric car scheme - Autoblog UK

Over the next 18 months, around 11,000 charging points are expected to be installed in streets, car parks and big supermarkets. This is on top of those already installed.

 

[vfx]

Plugs and Cars

Who knew?

The units I found quite accidentally are Free Juice Bar dual-connector units.

Lots of mistakes will be made as public infrastructure is deployed. Charge stations will appear where cars don't. Bad siting or signage will lead to empty or ICEd spaces. And 240V charge stations will appear where 120V outlets would suffice. I've publicly pondered when the first J-plug would appear at an airport long-term parking lot, as there would seem to be little benefit to charging faster if the car is sitting for one or more days. If you're parking in a long term lot, your Tesla will fill up at 120V before you return.

 

[TEG]

Where Are the Promised Electric Vehicle Chargers? - voiceofsandiego.org: Letters

...The EV Project is a massive contract awarded to ECOtality by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) in August 2009 to install electric vehicle (EV) chargers throughout California and several other states. Although the DOE's grant was for $99.8 million, there was an additional grant of $15 million to expand the project, and the total public and private investment brings the total cost to approximately $230 million. The EV Project covers both in-home chargers and public chargers. While the in-home charger deployment is going well, they are failing on the public charger deployment...

 

[Eberhard]

Standard does not real matter. This can easily adapted later. What Elon mentioned is just moving the charger out of the Model S and make it a little bigger like 100kW instead of 20kW and therefore it needs to be DC. Or maybe at the charger-station there will be the chance to feed 5 Model S with AC 20kW or one with DC 100kW.

 

[Norbert]

Plugs and Cars

The Plugin America related people seem to be fond of 110 V (and low-amp 240V) charging. Maybe it's just me, but to me they seem stuck in the 90s or even before. Nissan is upgrading its 3.3 kW to 6.6 kW standard charging soon, and personally I'm sure it will take only a small number of years until even that is totally outdated, and all those low amp chargers will be considered a burden to be replaced. They reflect a limitation of current batteries, and the inertia of utilities, who are perhaps not yet confident that there will be the demand justifying more than the smallest investment. However they will be outdated faster than you can spell out PHEV.

 

[Lloyd]

Standard does not real matter. This can easily adapted later. What Elon mentioned is just moving the charger out of the Model S and make it a little bigger like 100kW instead of 20kW and therefore it needs to be DC. Or maybe at the charger-station there will be the chance to feed 5 Model S with AC 20kW or one with DC 100kW.

Is this not what the J1772 DC standard proposes?

 

[Lloyd]

The Plugin America related people seem to be fond of 110 V (and low-amp 240V) charging. Maybe it's just me, but to me they seem stuck in the 90s or even before. Nissan is upgrading its 3.3 kW to 6.6 kW standard charging soon, and personally I'm sure it will take only a small number of years until even that is totally outdated, and all those low amp chargers will be considered a burden to be replaced. They reflect a limitation of current batteries, and the inertia of utilities, who are perhaps not yet confident that there will be the demand justifying more than the smallest investment. However they will be outdated faster than you can spell out PHEV.

It's the consumer that will drive what these guys produce. I have been calling each of these manufacturers and telling them that I will buy their product (charge stations) when they are able to provide level II charging at 75 amps +. This tells them what their market will be. Everyone should do the same.

 

[vfx]

The Plugin America related people seem to be fond of 110 V (and low-amp 240V) charging. .

I would strongly dispute this. They have been driving EVs for 10 years and know how the Nissan 3.3 chargers are not only useless but damaging to the cause since new EV owners will be so disappointed. There are a few who are happy with anything but the techy ones all scream for 30 amp 220V min EVSEs.

 

[Norbert]

There are a few who are happy with anything but the techy ones all scream for 30 amp 220V min EVSEs.

I am glad to hear that (although it doesn't have to be screamed, it is just stating the obvious, in my mind). However the articles and videos which came to my attention so far, have been, unfortunately, quite consistent in this regard. Referring to the article you quoted, I'd wonder what the point would be of having the J1772 AC Level 2 standard for non-fast charging, if you then have to carry along 120V-outlet adapters all the time.

Airport long-term parking seems such an exception, and even there, if you have a 300 mile pack, and are just going on a short trip, coming back 48 hours later, 120V Outlets are probably already limiting the possible charge. J1772 EVSE's will surely come down in price, once the quantities are larger. The less expensive ones are already at $751, if not less. (In comparison, the Panasonic/Nissan 120V adapter is $508, according to Plug In America.)

Although the shown J1772 charging points look more expensive than that (yet charging is offered at no additional cost), I wonder why he has to complain about the only three J1772 charging points he could find. It's often more expensive to be the first, and usually the early options are limited. I'm all in favor of not making it a habit to buy super-expensive machines on tax payer cost, so I don't mind if he, in some context, raises that as a concern, but we have to start somewhere, and 120V outlets really aren't the better alternative. Also, in my mind, it would make EVs appear more like toys, than like a cost-effective yet serious alternative to ICEs. It would increase the perception (and actually, the reality) that EVs take long to charge.

 

[dpeilow]

I agree, there's a lot of this "40 miles a day is good enough for me therefore why would anyone want more?" attitude among the old guard. EV will remain forever niche if that prevails.

 

[dsm363]

But do they really have to build their own?? I hope the use a common standard.

Maybe they'll just build their own charger but it'll still use the J1772 standard? I certainly hope so as well. Anything other than J1772 (or the CHAdeMO standard) will be a big minus.

 

[vfx]

I agree, there's a lot of this "40 miles a day is good enough for me therefore why would anyone want more?" attitude among the old guard. EV will remain forever niche if that prevails.

Yes I concede the real old timers are still stuck it that world and there are even some that say to keep the legacy paddle chargers around for their RAVs. It's a volunteer organization and collectively and individually the opinions are differing. There are also outside sources they have to work with (like Nissan) and budget conscious government bodies that also affect what actions get done.

Here in CA there are Tesla charges being replaced with J connectors right now. Do you think all Tesla owners are going to come in on the same side of that action given there are not any approved adapters yet?

 

[dpeilow]

Collect the old plugs please...

 

[doug]

... some that say to keep the legacy paddle chargers around for their RAVs.

Well, I'd say if one is there and it gets use, probably best to leave it. It's a real hassle for those RAVs to carry around a charger. The AVCONs, though, should be converted to Yazaki J1772, and drivers should get an adapter or convert their vehicles. It's simply in their best interest to do so with all the new public chargers coming online.

Here in CA there are Tesla charges being replaced with J connectors right now. Do you think all Tesla owners are going to come in on the same side of that action given there are not any approved adapters yet?

Hopefully they're using J connectors rated for 70 Amps.

Collect the old plugs please...

This! ^^^

I'll say again, though, that I find that Yazaki J1772 connector fairly limited and as battery capacities increase in the future it will be found to be inadequate.

 

[TEG]

Based on the Leaf's paltry 3.3kW J1772, it really is best used only for overnight charging (e.g.: at home, hotel, dealer service bay), and I hope the DC fast charge is what gets deployed in public places where one will make a quick stop. You could get a full charge on your lunch stop during a road trip. Even if you had full power HPC's the whole way for a Roadster trip, it is still an annoying amount of waiting compared to the gasoline pump refueling times most people expect. It seems to me they should start to put more emphasis on the high speed options on major travel corridors.
Pushing hard to get max amps from J1772 might not be the best approach. It still falls short. I think we need more effort to get the high speed DC installed. If Blink/EVproject/Nissan/etc don't get the ball rolling fast with CHAdeMO then the debate over other options will probably start to heat up more, and derail the interest they are starting to foster.

 

[richkae]

If the Leaf supported real 70A level 2 charging that the Roadster did you could easily get the same amount of charge that you would from a fast DC over lunch.
Not a McDonald's lunch, but a real lunch that took a whole 1 hour and 15 minutes.

A 70A level 2 charge connector is not significantly more expensive than a 30A.

 

[ChadS]

The Plugin America related people seem to be fond of 110 V (and low-amp 240V) charging.

Hi Norbert,

I'm not sure how you got that impression. A lot of us at Plug In America have been working hard for DC Fast Charge and high-amperage L2 charging. We've talked to auto manufacturers, governments and EVSE installers about it. But the big problem seems to be that the DOE funds that are paying for a lot of the "test" EVSE projects going on reward quantity over quality.

I've tried to talk to the DOE about it, but haven't been able to find anybody willing to admit they have anything to do with this decision.

 

[Norbert]

I'm not sure how you got that impression.

From specific articles and videos (and some of the material on the website seemed outdated, although that might be a very specific impression as well). I am glad to hear if it is not the case in general, as I am otherwise happy with Plug In America's activities, and think positively about it altogether, in any case. I usually keep checking the website once in a while hoping for new articles which interest me, and will be careful to do so without bias regarding this specific point.

The situation with fast charging really gets complicated by the lack of an existing (yet forward looking) standard. I'm hoping Tesla will soon be able to speak on this subject.

 

[SByer]

For companies installing chargers, where you're going to be plugging in most of the day, the 210V30A of the most popular changers is fine. For long distance stretches, I don't think there is yet a standard that really covers things. I really think that in the end if there's a single plug/socket standard that has all the right properties (can plug a level 2 plug into a level 3 socket but not vice versa, yada yada), even if it's not 'leading' in everything else like top level three power, that that will win. The Leaf having two sockets on the car is just stupid from a consumer perspective. One socket that 'adapts' is critical, even if it means the level 2 socket is slightly larger than it has to be.