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Charging should be integral with parking

Discussion in 'North America' started by henderrj, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    Back in the eighties, like many of us, I looked into converting a car (RX-2) to electric. Let's grant that the proposal was untenable at the time. But as part of the effort I came up with the Power Docking Port concept. I've developed it out significantly since the introduction of the Roadster and then Model S. The discussion seems apropos to recent news. Here are a few points I typed up some time ago (slightly modified).


    • Recharging ought to be integral with parking – automatic and requiring no user input.
    • It ought to work the same, albeit at different charge rates, whether at home, a supercharger, or Starbucks.
    • It should work with any power source (or charger); AC single or three phase, or high powered DC.
    • The same standard should work in Shanghai, Seattle, or Saskatoon.
    • It should work with a Tesla, a BMW, or a Nissan.

    There is vastly more, of course, but I'd like input in two areas.

    1. Would those of you who actually own and drive Model S be interested in such an option? If it cost 3-5K?
    2. Who would I talk with at Tesla about the concept?

    Thanks for your help - hopefully this will somehow help you!

    Rick
     
  2. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    Maybe I am backwards but I see very little benefit to inductive charging or something similar. It is just so easy to plug in. So unless the price was under $100 with virtually no losses I would pass.
     
  3. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    Do you mean something like: http://www.pluglesspower.com

    They have Leaf and Volt versions and are in development for a Model S version.

    There are questions about induction charging losses and the relative cost versus convenience gain factor. They claim roughly 5% inductive charging losses, but at the high levels of electricity flowing, that's actually quite a lot of power being lost.
     
  4. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

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    There is something to be said for the ease of use but, frankly, it's just not that big a deal to plug in.
     
  5. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    You are all correct - inductive charging willnever work. It barely carries enough power to handle small usage today. Image what it will be like when we have 200KWh batteries. No, I’m talking a directconnect – but automatic with parking.
     
  6. hiroshiy

    hiroshiy Active Member

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    Just FYI Toshiba is working on this for a while and they start testing wireless charging EV bus at the airports this year. I thought there's even a standardization body for EV wireless charging.
     
  7. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    The Toshiba product, as far as I can find, is talking in single digit watts of charging. We're talking 400 amps, 400 volts or 160 kilowatts. I just don't see that as being safely and simply donewith any wireless solution.

    But it does bring up another thought – what I have called “sip charging”, i.e. a delivery van that connects at most every dock. With the initial high charge rate (constant current) of a direct connect supercharger, ten minutes charging ten times a day would be enough to keep the truck going all day long. Similar arguments could be made for sales reps, police cars, etc. This is where the serious pollution generation occurs - and where it can be eliminated.

    So, back to the root question, is a physical/electrical/communications Power Docking Port standard worth pursuing?

    - - - Updated - - -

    True, except it tips the scales for Joe Averageaway from BEVs. (As unreasonable as that is.) And then there are the tripswhere one must charge outside the comfort of their garage - in the rain, andblizzards, and ...

    Butmainly, as I said in another post, it's the sip charging that I think can makethe greatest difference.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, that and a standard would mean ubiquitouscharging sites – better than gas stations for ICE cars. And the same everywhere – well, for thevehicle end. It is possible. Probably possible a million ways. But somehow a single standard must beaccepted. Tesla is the natural leaderfor this effort. I could approachLeviton (Toyota’s supplier) as their headquarters are in my neck of the woodsand I used to know a VP over there. But Ithink Tesla is the best choice. Thoughts?
     
  8. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    - in order to support very high power charging you'd likely need higher capacity batteries, which reduces the need for OTR charging anyway
    - personal needs would be limited
    - plugging-unplugging is fast
    - if you reach a practical limit per cable, you can add another cable and another socket; it'd still be better than standing by a fuel pump.

    If the need really arose for an extreme socket I think a standard would be set quite quickly, either de facto or by agreement and it'd be better to wait until that issue arises.

    If long-range BEVs became the norm, I think that rather than having some widely-deployed automated docking system you'd have a simpler solution of enclosed charging stations with automatic doors: BEVs don't need to "refuel" outside.
     
  9. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    I doubt that wireless charging will become technically practical for EVs. It would require a standard that is used by all car manufactures which is, as we all know, next to impossible.

    I totally disagree that plugging in is simple. It's an annoyance, especially in the public. Cables and plugs are on the ground and dirty. No one wants to roll them up properly after use. I have to find my J1772 adapter each time. I have to remember to first to go Controls > unlock charge port. I usually have to back into the parking spot as the cable doesn't reach to the back of the Model S. That fact alone is seriously annoying especially in parking lots that have diagonal parking. If it's wet and rainy I really don't want to handle a wet heavy cable and spend any time out there standing in the rain.
     
  10. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Yes it's worth pursuing but remeber that the "works for any car anywhere" part of the deal is 1% engineering and 99% politics/business. So good luck with that aspect.

    But other than that yes I'd like it to work the way my robot lawnmower goes to the charger and docks.
     
  11. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    You have, collectively, convinced me to pursue the power docking port concept. (AIlthough I agree that it will be, without doubt, difficult to achieve.) Which brings us back to one of the first questions. Who is a good contact at Tesla?
     
  12. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    Okay, an interesting update on the bus front. The claim is for 90% efficiency and 120 KW charging rate. What do you all think?
     
  13. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    I think the current charging in the MS is too inefficient already, I wouldn't want to take off yet another 10%
     
  14. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

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    The glass is 1% empty? Maybe you should get rid of your EV and go back to gas...

    That's why I plug in at home and (almost) no where else. Literally, 20 seconds on each end. Having the range, I don't need to charge elsewhere. I believe that within a few years, most EVs will have sufficient range to not need to charge outside the home. Given the low utilization rate of Blink and ChargePoint networks, I believe few people charge outside their home anyway.

    Consider the situation today for most people. The vast majority of the population tolerates gas stations and they are 10X worse than physical charging (dirtier, takes longer, costs more, requires going out of your way).
     
  15. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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  16. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    If all cars used the same wireless charging standard and they were widely deployed for street parking then it would be useful. Having one company do it wouldn't move the needle.
     
  17. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Guys the OP clearly says he's NOT talking about wireless/induction charging.
     
  18. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    $3-5K is the killer.
     
  19. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    Thank you Johan. It is a physical connector. I'm working with a design artist right now need to get a working conceptual model.
     
  20. henderrj

    henderrj Member

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    I'm thinking of it as the entry point for the Gen III car to Supercharging. Tesla might also include the double charger with the option. Most MS 60 customers seem to be ordering the Supercharger option so I'm assuming most, or at least greater than half, would also opt for something like this. As it would, if in fact standardized, give access to a much wider range and number of chargers one would think it would be commonly ordered.

    It also becomes more palatable for apartment complexes, etc, to put in charge stations as one type would do it for all. And remember, the design allows for many electrical supply sources - AC (single or 3 phase) or DC. So one could install a NEMA 6-50 equivalent all the way up to supercharging with the same physical connection. (The car and charger would negotiate the best rate depending on the capabilities of each.)
     

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