Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[WannabeOwner]

It's easy to imagine a scenario where someone drives an average of 40 miles or less per day but their driving distance varies during the week with some days more and some days less. Having a 238 mile range battery means they can average their daily use over the span of a week. For example, they might be able to do extra charging on weekend days if they aren't traveling.

I think that's a very narrow market segment. Someone who has variable driving distance during the week is likely to encounter two days back-to-back with long distance, in which case the average won't apply. I can't imagine owning a BEV that I cannot, more-or-less, replenish overnight. That allows me to do a daily-drive, whether weekday commute or a weekend jolly, whenever i want - up to the range of the vehicle [EDIT: alternatively "Up to the max amount I can charge overnight"] . Anything beyond that requires considerable planning, and will be restricted to way more Geeky people than i think are the Bolt's majority audience.

 

[jgs]

I think that's a very narrow market segment. Someone who has variable driving distance during the week is likely to encounter two days back-to-back with long distance, in which case the average won't apply. I can't imagine owning a BEV that I cannot, more-or-less, replenish overnight. That allows me to do a daily-drive, whether weekday commute or a weekend jolly, whenever i want - up to the range of the vehicle [EDIT: alternatively "Up to the max amount I can charge overnight"] . Anything beyond that requires considerable planning, and will be restricted to way more Geeky people than i think are the Bolt's majority audience.

As you might imagine, I agree. I think the worst case is there's good uptake of the Bolt by a wave of first-time EV buyers who don't understand charging well enough and are disappointed, and erroneously conclude that all EVs suck. (A cynic might say this is the desired outcome, but I'm not a cynic.)

The Tesla sales people do a pretty thorough job of explaining charging and making sure people are well-educated on the options. In the best of all possible worlds, GM will do a good job too, but in reality it's hard for me to imagine how they'll be able to given the practicalities of working with their dealer network.

 

[Jeff N]

I accept that this is feasible. I don't believe it's very appealing, but I suppose we'll see what the market thinks.

We were talking about 120V AC charging. If this 40 mile overnight averaging system doesn't work out then they just switch to 240V charging either using the same "free" charge cord at 16A with an adapter to get 80 mile overnight charging or by purchasing a 32A EVSE to enable a full recharge overnight in 9.5 hours or less.

I think that's a very narrow market segment. Someone who has variable driving distance during the week is likely to encounter two days back-to-back with long distance, in which case the average won't apply

So, they upgrade to faster 240V AC charging. In any case, someone planning on "long-distance" driving should really get the DC option.

 

[Jeff N]

I think the worst case is there's good uptake of the Bolt by a wave of first-time EV buyers who don't understand charging well enough and are disappointed, and erroneously conclude that all EVs suck. (A cynic might say this is the desired outcome, but I'm not a cynic.)

I agree that is a risk although we have seen plenty of BEVs that came only with AC charging or had AC charging standard with DC optional and I don't recall hearing that owners concluded that EVs "sucked" because they failed to buy a car with a DC inlet. Usually they conclude EVs didn't work for them because of battery range.

 

[Yuri_G]

So arriving at least 1 year earlier, with likely more range, and now may even be cheaper than the barebones 3! Tesla still has the "cool" card to cling to, I guess.

Talk about clinging... One of those things may come true. Keep holding your breath.

 

[WannabeOwner]

One of those things may come true

The "arriving at least 1 year earlier" bit I assume? and that's provided you live in a ZEV state and have a dealer who sells EV models ... otherwise only 6 months, maybe less (particularly if Bolt sales are successful, ironically!).

As I see it Musk is in the driving seat, because he is launching second, so he can, now and with the benefit of having seen the Bolt launch, choose whatever Battery, Standard options and Price he wants and my money will be on him doing exactly that to position the Model 3 in a way that makes it look very attractive in the marketplace.

 

[McRat]

I don't how new this is, but GM is selling business level 24kW CCS stations for a "reasonable" price:

GMDE Solutions

$10k, but there probably is a tax credit, I'll have to ask our CPA. It does require 3ph 480 though.

Sure beats the commercial 50kW unit:

GMDE Solutions

All the 24kW unit will permit is a second delivery run in a day, which would be rare.

 

[McRat]

The "arriving at least 1 year earlier" bit I assume? and that's provided you live in a ZEV state and have a dealer who sells EV models ... otherwise only 6 months, maybe less (particularly if Bolt sales are successful, ironically!).

As I see it Musk is in the driving seat, because he is launching second, so he can, now and with the benefit of having seen the Bolt launch, choose whatever Battery, Standard options and Price he wants and my money will be on him doing exactly that to position the Model 3 in a way that makes it look very attractive in the marketplace.

Best guess is the Model 3 will compete against choices from Chevy, Nissan, and perhaps a German and a Korean entry.
It is unlikely the 2017 Bolt will spec out the same as the 2018. GM is normally bumps the mid-year or 2nd year on everything. It's sort of common to business though. Shoot the engineer and ship it. Now finish up the things we made you throw away.

 

[electracity]

I don't how new this is, but GM is selling business level 24kW CCS stations for a "reasonable" price:

GMDE Solutions

............

24kW is an odd size. Still takes hours to "fill the tank". For someone needing some charge to get home, it is certainly preferable to 7.7 kW. But it does no really enable long distance travel. Or at least not what most North Americans consider long distance travel.

 

[techmaven]

24kW is an odd size. Still takes hours to "fill the tank". For someone needing some charge to get home, it is certainly preferable to 7.7 kW. But it does no really enable long distance travel. Or at least not what most North Americans consider long distance travel.

$10k for the EVSE. Requires 480 volt, 3 phase input. Not something you install at home.

 

[McRat]

24kW is an odd size. Still takes hours to "fill the tank". For someone needing some charge to get home, it is certainly preferable to 7.7 kW. But it does no really enable long distance travel. Or at least not what most North Americans consider long distance travel.

These were engineered by Bosch for the 80 mile EVs with 20kWh batteries. They would not handle more power and insure 6 sigma rate on 8 year battery life.

 

[McRat]

$10k for the EVSE. Requires 480 volt, 3 phase input. Not something you install at home.

Correct. Cheap enough for businesses to use EVs as work vehicles. Allows a 200+ mile EV to charge overnight, or make a second late day run.

Very, very few residential areas in the USA have access to 3ph, and when they do, it's 208.

 

[bro1999]

I don't how new this is, but GM is selling business level 24kW CCS stations for a "reasonable" price:

GMDE Solutions

$10k, but there probably is a tax credit, I'll have to ask our CPA. It does require 3ph 480 though.

Sure beats the commercial 50kW unit:

GMDE Solutions

All the 24kW unit will permit is a second delivery run in a day, which would be rare.

I found this L2 EVSE on the same website: GMDE Solutions

Chevy-branded L2 Bosch unit with a 7.2 kW max output....exactly matching the Bolt's max output.

How much you want to bet this thing somehow comes bundled with a Bolt EV purchase? Likely claimed after purchase/lease via a rebate or voucher good towards the unit.

 

[techmaven]

Correct. Cheap enough for businesses to use EVs as work vehicles. Allows a 200+ mile EV to charge overnight, or make a second late day run.

Very, very few residential areas in the USA have access to 3ph, and when they do, it's 208.

Not really. Plus install costs and demand charges, it's one of the least cost effective way of charging EVs. Charging a 100 kWh battery overnight in 8 hours requires merely 14 kW, which can be supplied easily by an 80A J1772. A 60 kWh battery could be charged with a 40A rated EVSE (50A circuit). It's really too bad that L2 charging is yet another area that GM skimped on with the Bolt. It should have shipped with 9.6kW L2 charging. Too many people will install 32 amp EVSE's because of GM's myopia.

 

[Jeff N]

Not really. Plus install costs and demand charges, it's one of the least cost effective way of charging EVs. Charging a 100 kWh battery overnight in 8 hours requires merely 14 kW, which can be supplied easily by an 80A J1772. A 60 kWh battery could be charged with a 40A rated EVSE (50A circuit). It's really too bad that L2 charging is yet another area that GM skimped on with the Bolt. It should have shipped with 9.6kW L2 charging. Too many people will install 32 amp EVSE's because of GM's myopia.

The Bolt EV does a full charge in 9.5 hours at 32A 240V. In the default daily charge setting I think it charges to 90% and normally the beginning SOC is not completely empty so realistically you will be starting off with a 90% charge every morning with a maximum 8 hours of overnight charging.

I'm guessing a 24 kW DC charger would bring it to a default daily 90% charge in a maximum of 2.5-3.0 hours.

 

[bro1999]

Not really. Plus install costs and demand charges, it's one of the least cost effective way of charging EVs. Charging a 100 kWh battery overnight in 8 hours requires merely 14 kW, which can be supplied easily by an 80A J1772. A 60 kWh battery could be charged with a 40A rated EVSE (50A circuit). It's really too bad that L2 charging is yet another area that GM skimped on with the Bolt. It should have shipped with 9.6kW L2 charging. Too many people will install 32 amp EVSE's because of GM's myopia.

Cheap way for a Chevy dealership to meet the requirement of having a DC fast charging station installed on dealership grounds to be eligible to sell/service Bolts though.

 

[techmaven]

The Bolt EV does a full charge in 9.5 hours at 32A 240V. In the default daily charge setting I think it charges to 90% and normally the beginning SOC is not completely empty so realistically you will be starting off with a 90% charge every morning with a maximum 8 hours of overnight charging.

I'm guessing a 24 kW DC charger would bring it to a default daily 90% charge in a maximum of 2.5-3.0 hours.

What use case makes sense for a 2.5-3 hour charge for that much money? It doesn't make any sense at all.

Further, it means if you pull into a hotel near 0 range, you can't charge to 100% within 8 hours to leave in the morning. It's at least 9.5 hours. At the typical commercial voltages for L2's, that's 10-11 hours. Completely idiotic. They couldn't even use a full 32A... they are at 30A. In any case, a Clipper Creek HCS-40 is $565 and can deliver 7.7kW, so that's the best bet for a L2 charger for the Bolt. For $899, you can get a HCS-60 which can handle 48A and pretty much future proof for its usable lifespan.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Did you see the AmperaE commercial? Same car.

That's a commercial, not any car media or comments.

Smart did a similar one against a bunch of different sports cars and muscle cars, but no one is going to call it a sports car or a muscle car:

 

[bro1999]

What use case makes sense for a 2.5-3 hour charge for that much money? It doesn't make any sense at all.

Further, it means if you pull into a hotel near 0 range, you can't charge to 100% within 8 hours to leave in the morning. It's at least 9.5 hours. At the typical commercial voltages for L2's, that's 10-11 hours. Completely idiotic. They couldn't even use a full 32A... they are at 30A. In any case, a Clipper Creek HCS-40 is $565 and can deliver 7.7kW, so that's the best bet for a L2 charger for the Bolt. For $899, you can get a HCS-60 which can handle 48A and pretty much future proof for its usable lifespan.

See my post above. A GM dealer that is servicing Bolts that needs to be able to charge several a day fully within a reasonable time frame, and needs a DC charging station on the premises to qualify to sell/service Bolts.

 

[electracity]

I found this L2 EVSE on the same website: GMDE Solutions

Chevy-branded L2 Bosch unit with a 7.2 kW max output....exactly matching the Bolt's max output.

How much you want to bet this thing somehow comes bundled with a Bolt EV purchase? Likely claimed after purchase/lease via a rebate or voucher good towards the unit.

I expect most Bolt owners will follow Leaf owner behavior of charging from a standard 15A outlet.