Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[McRat]

Just got an email, but it's on the phone. This computer does not have email (home guest computer).

The CCS network at least in California is not only going to get bigger, it's probably going to get 125kW after UL approval of the equipment.

I wrote an email to the state concerned about ChargePoint winning the contract for the Mojave Express DCFC grant. This is the LA to Las Vegas route of CCS/CHAdeMO DCFC chargers.

I mentioned that when I see ChargePoint locations they are often 24kW which is too risky for the middle of the desert. Do you want your wife or daughter charging for 2 hours in the middle of nowhere?

They replied that the contract awarded was for 50kW and 125kW stations. The 125kW stations are pending UL approval.

 

[Jeff N]

They replied that the contract awarded was for 50kW and 125kW stations. The 125kW stations are pending UL approval.

Interesting. The last time I checked, the CA Energy Commission hadn't yet put the individual project funding documents online for the new east-west corridor stations. All of the 62 north-south corridor stations funded this year are 50 kW, I think, although some lesser stations could have escaped my notice. I didn't see any mention of faster chargers being installed immediately but all of the 41 sites have a pad with electrical conduit pre-installed for a future 100 kW station (and a transformer pre-sized for it) that could be installed later with minimal labor cost.

Using 125 kW stations makes sense because there is some talk that charging at more than 240A or so with the CCS plug might require active liquid cooling of the plug and that adds cost and probably reduces reliability. Staying at around 125 kW or less probably means regular cables and plugs.

 

[Zoomit]

Interesting. The last time I checked, the CA Energy Commission hadn't yet put the individual project funding documents online for the new east-west corridor stations. All of the 62 north-south corridor stations funded this year are 50 kW, I think, although some lesser stations could have escaped my notice. I didn't see any mention of faster chargers being installed immediately but all of the 41 sites have a pad with electrical conduit pre-installed for a future 100 kW station (and a transformer pre-sized for it) that could be installed later with minimal labor cost.

Using 125 kW stations makes sense because there is some talk that charging at more than 240A or so with the CCS plug might require active liquid cooling of the plug and that adds cost and probably reduces reliability. Staying at around 125 kW or less probably means regular cables and plugs.

We're getting off topic, but the N-S corridor stations will get 47 stub-outs at 41 locations for between 100 and 150 kW chargers. Here are the 9 corridor contracts:

1 I-5: Oregon Border to Red Bluff
ChargePoint, Inc. (#12)
8 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

2 I-5: South of Red Bluff to north of Sacramento
NRG EV Services LLC (#19)
5 stations with 2x 150 kW stub-out

3 SR 99: South of Sacramento to north of Fresno
EV Connect, Inc. (#03)
5 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

4 SR 99: Fresno to north of Wheeler Ridge
EV Connect, Inc. (#04)
5 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

5 US-101: San Jose to Buellton
Recargo, Inc. (#16)
8 stations with 1x 100 kW stub-out

6 I-5: Wheeler Ridge to Santa Clarita
ChargePoint, Inc. (#14)
4 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

7 I-5: San Clemente to Oceanside
EV Connect, Inc. (#07)
1 station with 1x 125 kW stub-out

8 SR 99: South of Red Bluff to north of Sacramento
NRG EV Services LLC (#23)
1 station with 2x 150 kW stub-out

9 I-5: South of Sacramento to north of Wheeler Ridge
ChargePoint, Inc. (#13)
4 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

This is from: http://energy.ca.gov/2016publications/CEC-600-2016-002/CEC-600-2016-002.pdf
with corridors defined on slide 13 here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/GFO-15-601/GFO-15-601_Pre-Application_Workshop_Presentation.pdf

When chargers actually get installed on these stub-outs, these routes will likely be the first in the US that approach the current Supercharger network capability.

 

[hacer]

We're getting off topic, but...
4 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out
...
1 station with 2x 150 kW stub-out
...
When chargers actually get installed on these stub-outs, these routes will likely be the first in the US that approach the current Supercharger network capability.

I'm sorry but stations with one or two chargers in no way approaches the Supercharger network capability.

 

[McRat]

I'm sorry but stations with one or two chargers in no way approaches the Supercharger network capability.

Remember, there are NO fast charge capabilities of any cars other than Teslas. That will put your mind at ease.

However, there is no way I can guarantee that will last forever. When God returns from vacation, I'll probably be fired.

And the problem that all EV's must by law travel from NY to LA at least once a week might be overruled as well, much to the glee of the 100,000 Leaf owners in the USA. They have had to leaf (cough) leave their cars in storage so far, as you cannot operate an EV without 125kW charging capability over the entire North American Continent (excluding Nebraska which was eaten by a sinkhole last week).

Bizarre Trivia - We have 3 work trucks. Two have been to Florida, Missouri, Texas, Washington, Colorado, Utah, California, Mexico, Canada, etc.

The other has never left the state. Does that mean I only drove inside my warehouse? 100,000 miles is a lot of laps.

 

[Zoomit]

I'm sorry but stations with one or two chargers in no way approaches the Supercharger network capability.

That's fair. I meant, but didn't qualify, equivalent power capability.

Reliability, cost and availability are all different discriminators.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That's fair. I meant, but didn't qualify, equivalent power capability.

Reliability, cost and availability are all different discriminators.

Definitely. Far better than nothing, but still quite a ways to get to the equivalent (esp. for those not living in California).

 

[Jeff N]

This is from: http://energy.ca.gov/2016publications/CEC-600-2016-002/CEC-600-2016-002.pdf

Excellent, thanks! I missed this document when I looked for data on the newly funded sites.

Somehow the title "Localized Heath Impacts Report" didn't reach out and grab me.

 

[GSP]

We're getting off topic, but the N-S corridor stations will get 47 stub-outs at 41 locations for between 100 and 150 kW chargers. Here are the 9 corridor contracts:

1 I-5: Oregon Border to Red Bluff
ChargePoint, Inc. (#12)
8 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

2 I-5: South of Red Bluff to north of Sacramento
NRG EV Services LLC (#19)
5 stations with 2x 150 kW stub-out

3 SR 99: South of Sacramento to north of Fresno
EV Connect, Inc. (#03)
5 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

4 SR 99: Fresno to north of Wheeler Ridge
EV Connect, Inc. (#04)
5 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

5 US-101: San Jose to Buellton
Recargo, Inc. (#16)
8 stations with 1x 100 kW stub-out

6 I-5: Wheeler Ridge to Santa Clarita
ChargePoint, Inc. (#14)
4 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

7 I-5: San Clemente to Oceanside
EV Connect, Inc. (#07)
1 station with 1x 125 kW stub-out

8 SR 99: South of Red Bluff to north of Sacramento
NRG EV Services LLC (#23)
1 station with 2x 150 kW stub-out

9 I-5: South of Sacramento to north of Wheeler Ridge
ChargePoint, Inc. (#13)
4 stations with 1x 125 kW stub-out

This is from: http://energy.ca.gov/2016publications/CEC-600-2016-002/CEC-600-2016-002.pdf
with corridors defined on slide 13 here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/GFO-15-601/GFO-15-601_Pre-Application_Workshop_Presentation.pdf

When chargers actually get installed on these stub-outs, these routes will likely be the first in the US that approach the current Supercharger network capability.

It is great to see more fast chargers are coming, and they compatible with all vehicles.

It looks like the California Energy Commission is funding most of the cost. This makes me concerned about maintance and uptime of the chargers. I had hoped after experiencing poor maintenance and uptime for government funded L2 charge stations, they would add claw backs and/or bonuses to motivate better maintenance with less downtime. However I did not see anything like that in the pdfs. Once the charges are installed the contractor is paid, with no requirement for minimum uptime after the install is done.

GSP

 

[McRat]

DOH! First, sorry about the little rant above.

Second, I remembered I can directly access the email server from any computer.

Here's the response I received from the State of California concerning the charging rates on the Mojave Corridor:

Good afternoon xxxxx and the xxxxx Family,


My name is Brian Fauble and I am the team leader for the “DC Fast Chargers for California’s Interregional Corridors” solicitation.


I was forwarded your email regarding your concern on the award to ChargePoint for the Mojave Express Corridor leading to Las Vegas.


The 24-kw stations that ChargePoint has previously installed was in partnership with BMW as their effort to install fast chargers on corridors. I assume that BMW chose to go with the smaller fast charging stations because their vehicles have the smaller capacity, but that is just an assumption.


For our solicitation we did not set a power requirement because not every site in California can handle the exact same power load capacities and we did not want to limit the applicants from choosing their sites.


For the I-15 corridor, ChargePoint under this award will be installing at least (2) DC fast charging stations with both CHAdeMO and SAE connectors with a minimum charging rate of 50-kW, (1) dual-port 7.7-kW level 2 charging station, (2) stub outs for future installations, security cameras and lighting at every site along the corridor.


ChargePoint also stated that they plan to install their newest DC fast charging station, once it completes its UL certification, in place of their 50-kW stations. These new DC fast chargers are capable of dispensing up to 125-kw per charging port.


Regarding the cost of charging at each station, we at the Energy Commission do not have any authority to regulate the cost of charging. Charging costs are determined by either the site host, the owner of the equipment, or the equipment provider that is managing the equipment.


I hope this information has eased your concern, and if you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me.


Thank you,


Brian Fauble, Associate Energy Specialist

Zero-Emission Vehicle and Infrastructure Office

California Energy Commission

 

[scaesare]

Interesting. The last time I checked, the CA Energy Commission hadn't yet put the individual project funding documents online for the new east-west corridor stations. All of the 62 north-south corridor stations funded this year are 50 kW, I think, although some lesser stations could have escaped my notice. I didn't see any mention of faster chargers being installed immediately but all of the 41 sites have a pad with electrical conduit pre-installed for a future 100 kW station (and a transformer pre-sized for it) that could be installed later with minimal labor cost.

Using 125 kW stations makes sense because there is some talk that charging at more than 240A or so with the CCS plug might require active liquid cooling of the plug and that adds cost and probably reduces reliability. Staying at around 125 kW or less probably means regular cables and plugs.

Interesting... to hit 125KW @ 240A that implies a charging voltage of ~520V. From what I've found, it's thought the nominal pack voltage of the Bolt is 350V, similar with several other EV's. I don't know of anything on the horizon with > 400V for an upper limit. (Some 800V vaporware cars notwithstanding)

At 350V x 240A, that's only 84KW. Assuming a reasonably similar charge curve for the packs, the current will be beginning to taper as the voltage rises, so it would seem that it would be difficult to operate these chargers at anything grater than about 2/3rds their rating if that plug current limitation holds..

 

[hacer]

That's fair. I meant, but didn't qualify, equivalent power capability.

Reliability, cost and availability are all different discriminators.

Since this is as bolt thread in thought some might think this CCS network would make the bolt just as good for long distance travel as a Tesla. I think that once there are 30k Bolts in CA that network won't look very good.

 

[McRat]

Since this is as bolt thread in thought some might think this CCS network would make the bolt just as good for long distance travel as a Tesla. I think that once there are 30k Bolts in CA that network won't look very good.

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

The Bolt has not been released. This is Los Angeles, California CCS locations.

Next is the Los Angeles, California SuperCharger sites.

 

[3Victoria]

This is a better resource for chargers: PlugShare

 

[McRat]

Yes, that is Plugshare.com

In the same region, there are 8 superchargers and about 100 CCS locations.

 

[stopcrazypp]

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

The Bolt has not been released. This is Los Angeles, California CCS locations.
View attachment 200726

Next is the Los Angeles, California SuperCharger sites.
View attachment 200727

Pictures can be misleading given the different strategies employed (6+ stall stations laid out for longer trips vs cluster based stations with 1-2 chargers focused mainly in populated areas).

If you look at the CHAdeMO situation it illustrates this the best. CHAdeMO dwarfs the supercharger network in terms of number of stations. However when you count stalls, they are about the same, and nobody will say CHAdeMO is even close to the Tesla network for long distance travel.

 

[hacer]

A picture is worth a 1000 words...

Yeah, but those need word to put them in the context of this discussion.

Yes, that is Plugshare.com

In the same region, there are 8 superchargers and about 100 CCS locations.

Yes, the Bolt will make a nice commuter car. It can drive across that whole map you showed with just the charge you started out with from home. As can any Telsa. And you will have lots of choices to charge your Bolt in the city should the need arise.

But the, uh, point of the super charger network and the to-be-built CCS network discussed up thread is long distance travel. You don't seem to get that.

 

[McRat]

There was a mention that 30,000 Bolts in California in the distant future will cause chaos.

I'm not seeing it. California is BIG. It's over 750 miles tall. You will be able to drive a Bolt from the southern tip to the northern tip the minute you take delivery in CA. And to Las Vegas. Soon, they are adding more than a dozen other CCS routes in the state.

CCS sprung up overnight, and it's showing no signs of slowing down. It will be interesting to see where CCS is when the Model 3 becomes available to common folk.

BTW - That map shows about 200 miles.

 

[hacer]

There was a mention that 30,000 Bolts in California in the distant future will cause chaos.

Who said that?

I think GM is expecting to sell something like 50k Bolts in the next 12 months. Most will be in CA, so there will probably by 30k or so Bolts in CA in 12 months, which is not "the distant future". I see no reason for it to cause any chaos. Most will be used as daily driver commuter cars very, very effectively. Many will use them for distance travel too. I suspect those folks will wish there were more and better long-distance charging infrastructure, and will not be nearly as well served as those of us who can use the supercharger network during the next 12 months. That's not chaos, and it won't even prevent the Bolt owners from successfully traveling long distances, it will just take longer because the charging will be slower, but also because there will be competition to use the limited fast charging resource available along the routes outside the city. I'm well aware that the map you posted is about 200 miles across which is why I said that the Bolt could drive completely across it without charging since it has a 238 mile range.

I think you are being obtuse on purpose. Why?

 

[Zoomit]

Interesting... to hit 125KW @ 240A that implies a charging voltage of ~520V. From what I've found, it's thought the nominal pack voltage of the Bolt is 350V, similar with several other EV's. I don't know of anything on the horizon with > 400V for an upper limit. (Some 800V vaporware cars notwithstanding)

At 350V x 240A, that's only 84KW. Assuming a reasonably similar charge curve for the packs, the current will be beginning to taper as the voltage rises, so it would seem that it would be difficult to operate these chargers at anything grater than about 2/3rds their rating if that plug current limitation holds..

The 125kW chargers are not that different than the "50kW" chargers used today. Many of the "50kW" are rated at 500V and 125A. That's actually 62.5kW but that power would only be used if there was a battery that could take 500V. Most EV batteries peak around 400V, including the Bolt EV. So at 400V and 125A, those chargers put out 50kW.

Similarly, the 125kW chargers will be 500V and 250A, but again the batteries in today's EV only use 400V. So at 250A and 400V, the "125 kW" chargers will really be putting out a max of ~100kW.

Then the question is which cars can take 250A and 400V. That will depend on the size of the battery and the designed charging "C" rate. Tesla's charge at a peak of around 1.2C to 1.3C. If we assume the same for other cars, the battery capacity must be 77 to 83kWh to charge at 100kW (250A, 400V). Currently no CCS-compatible cars exist with such batteries. The closest is the Bolt EV that might have a 70kWh total battery capacity. It would need to charge at 1.4C to take full advantage of a "125kW" charger and charge at 100kW.

Basically because the chargers are rated for 500V and most EVs reach a peak charging voltage around 400V, all the DCFC stations never exceed ~80% of their rated capability.

Superchargers have demonstrated greater than 300A with the typical charging cables. The same could be expected of CCS stations rated to 150kW (500V at 300A). I'd guess this is the upper limit for the current cable design. A "150kW" charger could charge a battery at 400V and 300A giving 120kW. Here again, no current EVs (except Teslas) are known to be able to handle 300A to charge at 120kW.