Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[stopcrazypp]

All in all if you don't use objective numbers you'll just be yelling into the wind. Nobody cares what you or I think a compact car is. But we do have the EPA and European car designations and those use objective numbers.

Print out your favorite table from Vehicle size class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and take it car shopping with you. I won't care which one you use, but if you argue the tables are wrong you are missing the point.

And as to the buying public they adjust to the new terms that apply over time, they may get it wrong in the short term for some cars but people can be confused. It's not a simple comparison.

The thing is no one looks at the EPA or Euro designation when car shopping in the real world. Everyone (including car magazines) refers to cars like the Fit, Versa, Yaris etc as "subcompact" at this current point in time (I know it's a rolling target). I'm using that term in that context.

And the link you gave already points out a discrepancy: EPA and Canada refers to interior volume, while Europe (if you dig around a bit into the links on that page) mainly refers to overall exterior size of the car (not interior volume). It makes sense as Europe is more concerned about parking space a car takes up (for example the "compact only" parking spaces).

You can't tell if a car is a "EPA subcompact" just by looking at it (you would need a measuring tape), but you can tell if it's a "subcompact" (as used by the market) by visually judging the exterior size. All I'm saying is from what I can tell the Bolt looks like a subcompact outside and that the Volt, while looking like a compact outside, has a rear seat/cargo room that's smaller than what people call a subcompact. So while the Bolt may feel roomier on the inside than the Volt, it may still end up similar to other "subcompacts" in terms of interior size.

 

[Model 3]

I wonder how folks view this now...

Personally I have not changed views on this, and will not do so until there is an official announcement from GM with technical details, and not just rumors in the press.


When a possible official announcement is announced, I will see if there is a need to rethink my views or not.

 

[JRP3]

I'm inclined to agree with M3. The concept as shown does not do what they are claiming and I'm not impressed with that design. Hopefully the actual production vehicle will perform as advertised and will look much better. Other than the Corvette I'm not a big fan of GM styling in general so my expectations are not high.

 

[scaesare]

I really think there are two separate issues:

1) The confidence that GM can or will execute on this. -I understand the skepticism. They may ultimately not have the ability, or will, to do this at all. And even if they do, there's certainly the likelihood they may not be able to hit all of their project goals.

2) The desire and/or intent to aim this direction - The mere fact that there is interest within GM to discuss this idea, much less mock up examples and/or make plans to target a BEV in this class with these specs at this price is significant. It clearly underscores that they feel the pressure to at least publicly address the segment Tesla has created and/or targeted.

Again, I'm trying to make the point that what's happening with #2 is significant. The fact that they are addressing this car again (especially if the reports are accurate) could well help this become the tipping point in which Tesla has urged the Big 3 to start getting serious about EV's.

Unfortunately everybody seems to want to get hung up on #1. Yes they may botch some aspect of it. The styling may not be to everybody's liking. Sure they may have struggles with fast charging infrastructure especially initially. But to even TRY to address the 200mile/$30K EV segment is huge... despite silly things like not liking the grill design...

 

[JRP3]

I guess I don't see it so much as "huge" as inevitable. I always expected other companies to address this market, and while I'm happy to see it happening I'm much more interested in how they actually execute it. I was happy to see Nissan planning an affordable 100 mile range EV, I was less happy with the actual result, an odd looking 75 mile range EV with an easily degraded battery pack. I'm still hoping Nissan will up their game, and am still long their stock, but I expected a faster rate of improvement than what they have delivered so far.

 

[techmaven]

I have confidence that GM will build a BEV based on the Gamma 2 platform and look somewhat like the concept they showed. It will likely have some form of DC charging. In some way, it might get 200 mile range on one charge and the cells are going to be supplied by LG. Beyond that we have almost nothing. No battery capacity. No understanding of how it might get 200 mile range. No estimated power. Still some ambiguity about the 5th seat. No real information on the DC charging or charging network. It is just disappointing how little information was given even in comparison to other concept car introductions. Further, the automotive and mainstream press gave them a pass on it.

 

[Model 3]

Unfortunately everybody seems to want to get hung up on #1.

The reason I'm "hung up on #1" is disappointment with GM. They have talked a lot a long time about a new EV (the Volt was after all supposed to be an BEV, or at least a serial PHEV, not a parallel PHEV). Then they build this team to study Tesla to find out how to succeed in the EV business. Then all that noise about building a 200+ mile range EV. And last this was meant to be announced on this show. And then they just showed a concept car? Yes, they told the public this was a concept car. And they told the public that they did not commit to build this car - ever. And they did not tell enough technical details about this car that they convinced me that they really knew how to build this car anytime soon - for a reasonable price.

That's why I do not belive that they have either the will and/or the know-how to build this car anytime soon.

The #2 point was been made a long time ago, when they announced/released the Volt, or at least when they build the "Team Tesla". They are not more committed to day then at that time. And again: I would love this rumors to be true, but will not hold my breath. Sooner or later they will just have to...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I have confidence that GM will build a BEV based on the Gamma 2 platform and look somewhat like the concept they showed. It will likely have some form of DC charging. In some way, it might get 200 mile range on one charge and the cells are going to be supplied by LG. Beyond that we have almost nothing. No battery capacity. No understanding of how it might get 200 mile range. No estimated power. Still some ambiguity about the 5th seat. No real information on the DC charging or charging network. It is just disappointing how little information was given even in comparison to other concept car introductions. Further, the automotive and mainstream press gave them a pass on it.

To be fair, the press gives Musk a pass on his statements, even though they should really know better by now.

I'm really not doubting that GM will make a 200 mile BEV for $37.5k. GM has made a bunch of investments in PEV that have suggested they're very serious about it. I just don't think that it'll be a long-distance car, because the concept is a box, while in the real world they've lowered the kammback on Volt 2 to improve aerodynamics.

 

[JRP3]

I'm really not doubting that GM will make a 200 mile BEV for $37.5k.

I just don't think that it'll be a long-distance car, because the concept is a box, while in the real world they've lowered the kammback on Volt 2 to improve aerodynamics.

These statements seem to be contradictory.

 

[techmaven]

To be fair, the press gives Musk a pass on his statements, even though they should really know better by now.

Actually, there are plenty of outlets that criticize whatever Musk says, including Bloomberg, WSJ, NYT, and CNBC as well as any number of other outlets. The discussion about the Bolt almost always takes GM's claims on their face value with little or no discussion. Given what we know about the next generation NCM batteries, GM needs to provide more information in order to be credible.

I'm really not doubting that GM will make a 200 mile BEV for $37.5k. GM has made a bunch of investments in PEV that have suggested they're very serious about it. I just don't think that it'll be a long-distance car, because the concept is a box, while in the real world they've lowered the kammback on Volt 2 to improve aerodynamics.

So which is it? Are they or aren't they making a long range BEV? Will the Bolt have enough real world range to jump between Tesla Superchargers (140 miles in the winter with 90% range including battery degradation after a bunch of years). That means an EPA range close to 200 miles. If so, it needs over 50 kWh of battery capacity. Given the shape they showed, it probably would need more due to poor aerodynamics - say 60 kWh. If it is 60 kWh, what DC fast charge EVSE will charge that battery to 80% in 45 minutes? The Combo CCS/CHAdeMO units that are being deployed these days will not (almost all are 50 kW or less). I doubt given what we saw and given what we know of the next generation LG NCM batteries that GM is fitting the Bolt with 60 kWh of battery capacity. There simply isn't enough room physically or in the price they are going to charge. At $300/kWh for the battery (lower for the cells) a 60kWh battery would be $18,000. That leaves $19k for the rest of the drive train and the rest of the car. There is no indication that LG can charge lower than Tesla's current price for their next generation of cells.

A far more likely scenario is 40 kWh. But a 40 kWh battery capacity has no shot at 200 miles of EPA range. A Model 3, on the other hand, has to have the real world range to make the jump between Superchargers, which means a real world range of about 200 miles like a Model S 60 kWh.

 

[Krugerrand]

That leaves $19k for the rest of the drive train and the rest of the car. There is no indication that LG can charge lower than Tesla's current price for their next generation of cells.

GM will just eat the difference to make the car ala Fiat. At 25-30k units (if it gets that far), there's no reason for them to sweat the cost. But you make an excellent point...just where will they be stashing all those batteries in that box to get their 200 mile range?

 

[JRP3]

That means an EPA range close to 200 miles. If so, it needs over 50 kWh of battery capacity. Given the shape they showed, it probably would need more due to poor aerodynamics - say 60 kWh.

To be fair, the Honda Fit EV was rated at 82 miles of range with a 20kWh pack, which would equal about 200 miles of range with a 50kWh pack. Obviously GM would need to reshape the "Bolt", which I expect anyway.

 

[Breezy]

As far as the press goes, I think that generally they are accepting of whatever Tesla or GM says--at first. After a while they might start asking questions about whether what's been said is realistic.

 

[techmaven]

To be fair, the Honda Fit EV was rated at 82 miles of range with a 20kWh pack, which would equal about 200 miles of range with a 50kWh pack. Obviously GM would need to reshape the "Bolt", which I expect anyway.

Unfortunately, it isn't a linear scale up because of the weight and size of the batteries.

 

[Idleup]

A lot of guys were negitive on the Volt when it was announced but it turned out to be a great vehicle.

 

[roblab]

A lot of guys were negitive on the Volt when it was announced but it turned out to be a great vehicle.

If you want an EREV, the volt is a good choice. For me, I never want to put gas in a car again, never want to have all those parts churning to an early death, never want to put out poisonous exhaust. But that's for me. When the volt came out, it was still a half gassed car. I would never want one.

Some people think ICE cars are good, too. Will never cut it for me.

 

[Idleup]

There are thousands of Volt and ELR owners who never put gas in their car and run primarily on battery - although unlike a battery only car, the Volt & ELR can travel state to state unlike battery only electric cars!

Regards

Mike

 

[EVSteve]

I still see it having some sort of REX option like the i3 but without the dismal 2 gallon capacity. As far as battery size the new Volt is supposed to be in the 50 mile EPA rage without a large increase in the battery size from the 38 mile EPA range of the current Volt. 200 miles of EPA could be accomplished with a 40kWh pack it's just a matter of power train efficiency and cell density combined with weight savings from lighter components. The Model-S is HEAVY and designed for power, speed, to be big and provide a 'wow' factor. By Wh/mile standards its an electron hog when compared to other EVs.

 

[JRP3]

Unfortunately, it isn't a linear scale up because of the weight and size of the batteries.

Sure, but weight is much less of an issue with steady state long distance driving, as I'm sure you know. Plus I added an extra 1.2kWh to make it an even 50. :wink:

 

[rabar10]

There are thousands of Volt and ELR owners who never put gas in their car and run primarily on battery - although unlike a battery only car, the Volt & ELR can travel state to state unlike battery only electric cars!

Regards

Mike

There are thousands of Model S owners and hundreds of Supercharger stations that can refute your "BEVs cannot travel state to state" comment.

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In any event, discussion on the Volt, BEVs vs. EREV/PHEV etc. belongs in their own threads:
GM Chevy Volt
Pure BEV Dogma