Completely Disgusted.

[MXWing]

It's interesting how in situations like this, changes to the product that affect you in a perceptually negative way cause a ton of uproar, but never the opposite. I bought my Tesla because I heard there was going to be a price increase. Several days later there was a price increase. Tesla didn't ask me for more money, even though it happened right after I bought the car and hadn't taken delivery yet. What's the difference between this situation and the one people are complaining about (purchasing the car and then an upgrade comes out shortly after)?

I was upset that I missed AP2 by a matter of weeks. In the short term it affects my resale value negatively, and in the long run means my car will be "obsolete" long before AP2 vehicles (assuming they do actually get full self driving, which mine will never have). But I ordered the car with AP1 and I can't be upset that a newer, better one came out soon after. Tesla took my money, and can't be upset that they didn't get more of it because of my order timing.

You've been enjoying fully functional AP1 while I didn't even get basic cruise control when I took delivery that was present on my 1987 Nissan Maxima.

AP2 is still a work in progress. 'Silky smooth' driving is worse than my wife driving. Not very confident in it.

There really is no 'perfect time' to get a Tesla and people should get used to it.

 

[croman]

@Dreamship - Generally I agree with your analysis on agency but my point was that ultimately we're missing a lot of important information but Tesla should probably do better regardless. We agree on that too. I meant to communicate that the employee statements could create liability but we don't have enough facts to adequately determine that.

 

[Krugerrand]

Ah ok so because it wasn't intentional then it makes it all OK and the employee shouldn't be held accountable anymore nor Tesla. It's always my fault if I get told lies or broken promises when dealing with Tesla. Sounds good.

Oh, stop it now. You're being absurd. There's a difference between an unintentional mistake and a lie/broken promise. A lie is intentional which is the opposite of unintentional. A promise also needs intent to break it. Alas, people throw the 'promise' word around a lot on this forum when a promise was never actually made. And finally, a mistake can have a wide range of consequences from entirely benign to death row.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

@croman - It's not that clear. Respondeat superior is dependent on the law of agency. It's unlikely that any sales rep has actual authority to bind Tesla through text messages. So then it becomes a question of apparent authority. It's quite possible that the OP in good faith believed what the sales rep told him. But that may not be enough. Can the OP really say he believed, in good faith, that the sales rep had the authority to make these decisions on behalf of Tesla? Seems doubtful. If not, then the misrepresentations simply allow the OP to get out of his contract, which he has already done. There's no tort here because there are no damages. So that's pretty much the end of the legal arguments.

What remains are just PR issues, and personally, while I'm not a fan of the disjointed way the OP went about reporting all this, I appreciate the power of information in the market. I agree that Tesla can and should do better.

I think if a Tesla employee is giving out information in writing, that they need to stand behind it. I call BS on Tesla if they aren't willing to.

 

[Err0r]

Oh, stop it now. You're being absurd. There's a difference between an unintentional mistake and a lie/broken promise. A lie is intentional which is the opposite of unintentional. A promise also needs intent to break it. Alas, people throw the 'promise' word around a lot on this forum when a promise was never actually made. And finally, a mistake can have a wide range of consequences from entirely benign to death row.

I appreciate the unnecessary lesson on what lies and promises are.

You can twist it however you want to defend Tesla. Point is I asked a question, was given a a solid answer to my question, and it turned out the answer was not true. So to all of your arguments this is perfectly OK because the DS made an unintentional mistake and Tesla is off the hook to blame. Awesome! It's totally my fault I should have came to you all, did my research, and NOT trust a Tesla employee on my purchase experience.

Regardless I am fighting this to the end and hope that my story will help a future Tesla owner from being deceived like I did.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'll happily take the Tesla vehicle + Tesla company of 2017 over the Tesla company of 2014 with the automobile of 2014. All in all life is fabulous and getting better.

My point is: I would rather take Tesla vehicle of 2017 and company of 2014.

I was asked which companies do IMO better in the said regard. Even Tesla used to.

I doubt even you think it is possible Tesla of 2017 is perfect as a company and no improvement is possible...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I have purchased 9 Tesla's since 2013, 7 from Tesla. All 7 of those transactions have had some sort of issue. Some issues where a pain to deal with some where not. When I sold my X a few months ago I said to my self that I was done as well but now that I am driving a new Volvo I am so over it and ready to get back into another X. It's a love hate with Tesla. There service is only going to get worse when the Model 3 ramps up so store up your patience now.

That's the problem one has when the product is great and the company is terrible.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Regardless I am fighting this to the end and hope that my story will help a future Tesla owner from being deceived like I did.

IMO Tesla getting pushback for their mistakes is good for both the company and the community. Model 3 is moving Tesla into the real world. Enthusiastic early adopters, no matter how well meaning like @Canuck just eating the results of Tesla's mistakes is not encouraging Tesla to improve. Quite the contrary.

IMO Tesla has probably fallen for many a hubris because their following has shielded them from some of the normal reactions. Sooner they become less reliant on hubris and more to sticking to their word, the better.

 

[Krugerrand]

I appreciate the unnecessary lesson on what lies and promises are.

You're most welcome, although we'll agree to disagree about whether it was unnecessary.

 

[timvracer]

Hmm.... this is VERY concerning, apparently Tesla representatives need grammar lessons.

Tesla is not disputing what I was told. As both of us have a record of the online conversation. \

I can quote it:
"Yes you will received the smart air suspension at no additional cost"
"Ok, then you will continue to receive the premium sound and yes since the lighting has become standard on all vehicles, you will get the lighting."

Why did I get the $1000 off if I am getting the above upgrades?:
"Most likely to help compensate for the cost of the premium sound then. We have since wrapped that into our premium upgrades package."

"Now, that it is wrapped up into the premium upgrades the associated value is now $1500. So that package essentially just got cheaper, and to be fair to you, we went ahead and credited you the difference."

Quotes are verbatim what was said. Staggering disorganization.

 

[alehbaba]

IMO Tesla has probably fallen for many a hubris because their following has shielded them from some of the normal reactions. Sooner they become less reliant on hubris and more to sticking to their word, the better.

you mean the fanbois drinking the elon koolaid?

 

[Surfer]

Some posters didn't understand/believe that I was actually in the middle of 14-50 plug install. I attached a picture of the trenching they are doing to get to the detached garage. The white rocks are very old coral apparently.
This install started just before Tesla let me know I was misinformed by an inside sales advisor.

 

[Carl]

@Surfer - that trench will serve anyhow, whether it is for a Tesla or any other EV. And you will be buying an EV in the near future, otherwise (i) you wouldn't be on this forum, and (ii) you wouldn't have bought two Tesla already before being disgusted by your third Tesla order experience . There will be nice alternatives from Audi, Jaguar etc. in the coming months, so do in any event continue the trench works!

 

[Err0r]

IMO Tesla getting pushback for their mistakes is good for both the company and the community. Model 3 is moving Tesla into the real world. Enthusiastic early adopters, no matter how well meaning like @Canuck just eating the results of Tesla's mistakes is not encouraging Tesla to improve. Quite the contrary.

IMO Tesla has probably fallen for many a hubris because their following has shielded them from some of the normal reactions. Sooner they become less reliant on hubris and more to sticking to their word, the better.

Well said. Couldn't agree with this more.

Most on this community encourage owners to just accept it and bow to the mighty Tesla even when they have some grounds to argue about.

I hope more owners will voice their concerns and any unhappy experience they have went through directly with Tesla. It will hopefully build Tesla to thoroughly train their employees better and improve their overall ecosystem. Heck my pickup experience was not as exciting as I thought it would be and I got annoyed after awhile. The guy waking me through my car was new from Apple and couldn't answer all my questions I was asking about the car and features.

Tesla just opened the floodgates to a vast amount of new customers with the Model 3 and even though it's a cheaper car, I bet the customers will be more picky. I really hope they are ready.

 

[skitown]

That's the problem one has when the product is great and the company is terrible.

@AnxietyRanger - I think you're too strong of a debater to resort to calling or insinuating Tesla is a terrible company. To each his own, but I think it's laughable and believe it weakens your overall arguments when people like me who have had two stellar buying experiences with Tesla read stuff like this. Are they perfect? Hell no. Are they trying harder than everyone else? That's been my experience.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I also bought TSLA years ago so it's hard for me to bash a company that's made me money and also given me a rock solid vehicle.

I understand your investment affects your opinion on the matter. However, some of the reasons that are positively affecting TSLA pricing, are reasons why Tesla is receiving criticism from some of its customers. For example individual customers may get dragged into questionable actions that are designed to improve quarterly results. Personally, I would often find distancing the investment from the consumer conversation would be the ethical highroad. There is just so much potential conflict of interest when investment in company is affecting the commentary of its actions in this kind of consumer/user setting.

I cut Tesla slack given where they came from and where they're at now. You don't. You demand perfection.

IMO I cut Tesla plenty of slack, not just in the same places as you do. But in the specific instance of promises made to the customer and broken (I've never faced any myself directly), I do think OPs approach of offering Tesla pushback for it is overall more beneficial for both the company and the community, than just letting them off the hook.

I refer to this story of yours, where Tesla told you that if you ordered by the end of the year, you would get a certain waiver. I think your story - if it is true and accurate - constitutes as pretty plainly a bait and switch and I would have welcomed Tesla getting pushback for it at the time. If a dealership had pulled that kind of stunt - entice you to order by a certain time by offering a discount and once you'd made the order then take the discount away - we'd be all over them on this forum...

I was told in Dec 2013 that they'd waive the destination and doc fee of $1,170.00 if I ordered before the end of the year. I then posted that here (stupidly) and I was told that getting a break like that from Tesla was unheard of -- as if I wasn't telling the truth. I then went to order and asked the sales rep how to get it off the webpage order and he looked into it and told me he was wrong and it didn't apply. I'm convinced it was because I posted here but perhaps he made a mistake. How he could make a mistake like that makes no sense.

I shrugged it off and went on with the order and I'm sure glad I did.

You are certainly free to do as you please. My only point in this thread - regarding your comment - was, since Tesla did not receive any real pushback for this at that time, they were not encouraged to do better next time in a similar situation. I am sure it was a decision that made you personally happy and I accept that. But in that case Tesla was left thinking they can get away with this. Even you yourself, I believe, are of the opinion that companies are what they are by nature and don't change unless they get very specific kind of pushback (e.g. legal), so IMO the OP in this case offering Tesla that pushback is encouraging them to improve.

Mind you, one of those improvements is simply increasing the chances that their employees don't give out wrong information. I would assume that even you would consider that a positive outcome?

Case in point: People like @wk057 and the Norwegians are reasons we don't get so many (any?) misleading HP and battery specs from Tesla anymore. In the end, as Tesla jumps off the deep end with Model 3, I do think cleaning up those kinds acts of over-promise and under-deliver is also in their interest. And IMO it is definitely in the interest of their user/consumer community.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger - I think you're too strong of a debater to resort to calling or insinuating Tesla is a terrible company. To each his own, but I think it's laughable and believe it weakens your overall arguments when people like me who have had two stellar buying experiences with Tesla read stuff like this. Are they perfect? Hell no. Are they trying harder than everyone else? That's been my experience.

I think we need to put things into context of what I was answering. @DougH spoke of "love hate", I don't think he hates Tesla either. His comment was a rhetorical tool, as was mine.

I have purchased 9 Tesla's since 2013, 7 from Tesla. All 7 of those transactions have had some sort of issue. Some issues where a pain to deal with some where not. When I sold my X a few months ago I said to my self that I was done as well but now that I am driving a new Volvo I am so over it and ready to get back into another X. It's a love hate with Tesla. There service is only going to get worse when the Model 3 ramps up so store up your patience now.

My point was: It is perfectly possible to really, really love a product and really, really hate the company that makes it. And everything in-between those extremes. I can see that @DougH, despite all those service misses, really misses the car. I don't doubt that for a minute, that it is a genuine and understandable outcome. Maybe he will soon get back into a Tesla and I understand that perfectly well too.

Tesla is not a terrible company. I'm not sure the car is a great product either, though IMO it is a good product that has a great, world-changing drivetrain IMO.

The great vs. terrible on my part was simply a rhetorical tool to place a product on one end of the spectrum and a company on the other - one example of this is e.g. Volkswagen Group's products after dieselgate.

 

[thomasjones]

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

I understand the frustration of some buyers with the rate of change at Tesla especially when one is in the limbo state between ordering and delivery.

It became acute due to the M3 rollout I think.

I have found the company will make some allowances when this occurs like discounts from the price that a buyer agreed on when the pricing structure changed.

Reflect that prior to Tesla these kinds of significant changes occurring at short intervals was not possible and it takes some getting used to.

Tesla management must realize though this introduces a deflationary component; it will be a better deal next month etc.

I think the company tries to mitigate this by throwing a bone to holders of recent orders or deliveries, although it is clearly not always effective.

Moreover, let’s not forget that a DS is a car salesman, (see euphemism treadmill) and no one believes a car salesman. Their raison d'etre is to book sales. Customer ire will always be secondary.

 

[Canuck]

I understand your investment affects your opinion on the matter.

Personally, I would often find distancing the investment from the consumer conversation would be the ethical highroad.

I'm a consumer -- not the President. I also own APPL but no Apple devices. Some of us can buy stock and remain objective. My point was simply that TSLA's been good to me and it's hard to constantly bash a company that's "given me a rock solid vehicle" -- funny you missed that part -- in the same sentence where I said I own the stock --since it doesn't fit with your constantly negative narrative about how bad Tesla is.

I refer to this story of yours, where Tesla told you that if you ordered by the end of the year, you would get a certain waiver. I think your story - if it is true and accurate - constitutes as pretty plainly a bait and switch

You need to learn what "bait and switch" means. I was never sold a different good than I what I went to buy, nor did they attempt to swap inferior or more expensive goods. They simply mentioned if I ordered before the end of the year they'd waive the doc fee then later said it was mistake.

If a dealership had pulled that kind of stunt - entice you to order by a certain time by offering a discount and once you'd made the order then take the discount away

You even quoted my post but got it wrong. I didn't "make the order" then they took the discount away. I went to make the order and asked how to get the discount, and he told me he made an error. Sorry, but I decide to not to jump all over the guy, or not go through with the order, which is what you want me to do. It was only $1k. Life's far too short to get all worked up over it, especially since it may have been a mistake (and I won't take advantage of a mistake like you), or my own fault for posting it here before I actually got the discount, if it wasn't a mistake. But for you, it's always worth bashing Tesla, even if it means my quality of life is reduced. No thanks. For me attitude is everything -- and shrugging it off and moving on was the right thing to do. Life's to short to wear these little annoyances for any longer than necessary.

I am sure it was a decision that made you personally happy and I accept that. But in that case Tesla was left thinking they can get away with this.

That's some odd logic. I shouldn't do what makes me happy because then Tesla can get away with stuff like this. It reminds me of the person who posted here that he cancelled his order because he failed to get free all-weather mats he was promised. He's your hero but to me he's a fool. This shows exactly where we differ.

Case in point: People like @wk057 and the Norwegians are reasons we don't get so many (any?) misleading HP and battery specs from Tesla anymore.

Right, and now we get "standard" and "long range" batteries on the Model 3 because heaven forbid if the number on our vehicles doesn't exactly match the battery capacity. Fraud! How dare Tesla make a long range EV, change the landscape of the auto industry, give us some hope for our children's future, and I have an 85 on mine instead of an 81! The company should be forced out of business. Please keep it up because you're on a noble crusade for justice for all of us Tesla owners...

 

[Surfer]

I'm a consumer -- not the President. I also own APPL but no Apple devices. Some of us can buy stock and remain objective. My point was simply that TSLA's been good to me and it's hard to constantly bash a company that's "given me a rock solid vehicle" -- funny you missed that part -- in the same sentence where I said I own the stock --since it doesn't fit with your constantly negative narrative about how bad Tesla is.



You need to learn what "bait and switch" means. I was never sold a different good than I what I went to buy, nor did they attempt to swap inferior or more expensive goods. They simply mentioned if I ordered before the end of the year they'd waive the doc fee then later said it was mistake.



You even quoted my post but got it wrong. I didn't "make the order" then they took the discount away. I went to make the order and asked how to get the discount, and he told me he made an error. Sorry, but I decide to not to jump all over the guy, or not go through with the order, which is what you want me to do. It was only $1k. Life's far too short to get all worked up over it, especially since it may have been a mistake (and I won't take advantage of a mistake like you), or my own fault for posting it here before I actually got the discount, if it wasn't a mistake. But for you, it's always worth bashing Tesla, even if it means my quality of life is reduced. No thanks. For me attitude is everything -- and shrugging it off and moving on was the right thing to do. Life's to short to wear these little annoyances for any longer than necessary.



That's some odd logic. I shouldn't do what makes me happy because then Tesla can get away with stuff like this. It reminds me of the person who posted here that he cancelled his order because he failed to get free all-weather mats he was promised. He's your hero but to me he's a fool. This shows exactly where we differ.



Right, and now we get "standard" and "long range" batteries on the Model 3 because heaven forbid if the number on our vehicles doesn't exactly match the battery capacity. Fraud! How dare Tesla make a long range EV, change the landscape of the auto industry, give us some hope for our children's future, and I have an 85 on mine instead of an 81! The company should be forced out of business. Please keep it up because you're on a noble crusade for justice for all of us Tesla owners...

I agree with AnxietyRanger. I currently own no Tesla's. I sold my S 70. I have attempted to purchase a replacement vehicle twice in the past 7 months, both times the answers were of low quality or outright false. The HI Tesla blaming WA Tesla. WA Tesla(super eager to claim my sale) knowing my in stock car was sitting and not moving and never calling me. And also telling me this was the case and not knowing that they shouldn't. Pretty tone deaf customer service. Car was almost two months late for an ***in stock***(CA) order. I cancelled, I don't need a 2016 car at full price barely in time for spring 2017.(admittedly other reasons too).

Now I order a car July 6th 2016 and 16 days later an inside sales person indicates in writing what equipment my car will have (in writing) and then 5 days later in the day my electrical outlet is being installed they tell me that the July 22 information is not correct.

I'm not sure why Tesla has such a hard time performing simple tasks like shipping cars or training sales staff, but they do. And when they do, the communication is very slow, and solutions are not forthcoming without pressure.

Currently a Tesla Manager is working on an answer, meanwhile 25 days are burned up come Monday with no progress in getting the car I was expecting per Tesla staff.

Almost any poster on this board could run a company operations better.(tech breakthroughs aside)

I am actually considering finding an instock(post July 22 build) S 75 car in CA and shipping it to HI myself. I have zero confidence in Tesla to do anything basic correctly.