Connectivity: service plan/upgradability/speed

[ClearwaterBchSteve]

I feel the best solution would be a variety of connectivity options...

1. WiFi - especailly for software updates. i think most owners would prefer to update their vehicle's firmware in the garage and not while tooling down the highway at 70mph.

2. Basic, Tesla provided 3g / 4g wireless (I thought I read somewhere that the equipment is 4g capable, however only 3d service is enabled). This should provide navigation and realtime traffic (certainly for the Tech Package) and basic connectivity for notification messages/updates from Tesla.This could easly be subsidized in the required service contract.

3. Nominal Paid subscription service (for browsing, music streaming, App support, etc.) using the in-vehicle receiver; and

4. Tethering using Phone's service as an alternative/addition to #3.

 

[cinergi]

Do you need working internet connection in order to input an address?

Nope. Without connectivity, you get a way to input a street address.

 

[cinergi]

Do you need an internet connection to find a point of interest, such as nearest Home Depot?

I *think* so but don't quote me on that. It's a little difficult to test :smile: If I recall correctly, the way to enter an address changes from Google Search to a standard city/state/street form when connectivity is lost.

 

[bob_p]

According to the call I had yesterday with Tesla, Navigon uses a database stored in the car - which could mean addresses could be entered for navigation without requiring an online connection. But because the address bar is part of the Google map application - that ma not be the case.

Having Navigon use a stored map database and Google maps using an online map database raises an interesting problem.

The Google map is probably going to more up-to-date than the Navigon maps, since the Google maps are downloaded from the Internet - and Google probably keeps their maps very up-to-date, they will likely be newer than the Navigon maps - which might be updated quarterly or annually.

 

[NigelM]

I feel the best solution would be a variety of connectivity options...

1. WiFi - especailly for software updates. i think most owners would prefer to update their vehicle's firmware in the garage and not while tooling down the highway at 70mph.

Model S requires the car to be stationary and off for firmware updates. Regarding WiFi, Tesla posted this yesterday:

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED ADDING THE ABILITY TO CONNECT MODEL S TO A WIFI NETWORK?
nkinkaid@teslam... | NOVEMBER 21, 2012

Yes. A software update planned for Q1 will enable all Model S cars to connect to a WiFi network. The hardware is already installed in all cars to allow this. The software update will simply enable the hardware.

 

[arg]

The only two missing features that would likely be available as "add-on" features were the consoles for the front and back seats. Otherwise everything else - dynamic radar control, parking assist, power folding mirrors, ... INCLUDING 4G INTERNET - are not available on the current production models - and will not be upgradeable by Tesla one the car is manufactured.

Obviously Tesla need to be conservative in what they say, since as soon as they admit something might be available as an upgrade they will be besieged by people wanting to know when its coming, claiming they only bought their cars on the back of that 'promise' and demanding refunds etc.

However, of the things you list it seems almost certain that 4G will eventually become available:

1) The radio hardware has to be in the form of a plug-in module somewhere in the car - there's essentially no other way to make it - and it must be reasonably feasible to swap them when they fail. Worst case it's been incorporated into some other piece of electronics, but that just makes it a $200 part to swap rather than $50.

2) Antennas might have been implemented in a way that's more tricky to swap, but again they do fail, and in any case adding separate antennas is not that hard - it might not achieve quite the performance of the from-new installation, but it's still going to be better than holding your iphone in your hand or whatever.

3) Tesla will almost certainly need to develop the new 4G module for future production Model S, due to competitive pressures and network support - the Model S/X is likely to remain in production long beyond 3G-only phones.

4) Tesla have shown (with the Roadster) plenty of willingness to make money out of selling stuff they've already built to owners of earlier revision models. Also, they are currently planning to make money selling the 3G service plan to Model S owners, and the time will come when doing that is harder (lack of network support at a reasonable price) than upgrading to 4G.

So, I think the 4G upgrade is inevitable, though probably not for a couple of years.

The other items on your list seem less certain, because if/when implemented for new production cars they could be done in ways that are hard to retrofit (if the body parts of the car are re-tooled to provide locations for the sensors for example). If the upgrade for older cars requires significant development work over and above what is being done for the new cars, it's less likely to happen.

More interesting is what scope there will be for after-market features like this - in particular, whether the SDK for new apps on the main display has easy access to third-party hardware added to the car. The ideal from this point of view would be if apps can generate CANbus messages to control new accessories tapping into the bus anywhere in the car - but Tesla are unlikely to allow that for fear of rogue apps crippling the car. We don't know enough about the car's bus architecture to know what is feasible here - maybe there's a separate accessory bus which is less safety-critical.

 

[Electric Machete]

Still can't believe Tesla can finance, engineer, build, and market a brand new automobile company that won Motor Trend's CoY on it's first real try. It's an amazing feat. How is it that wifi doesn't work yet?

 

[steve841]

Still can't believe Tesla can finance, engineer, build, and market a brand new automobile company that won Motor Trend's CoY on it's first real try. It's an amazing feat. How is it that wifi doesn't work yet?

Several items still are not yet active.

Voice commands.
Internal hard drive.
Any wifi features.

I'm sure I'm missing more. Guess its something to look forward to.

 

[jerry33]

Still can't believe Tesla can finance, engineer, build, and market a brand new automobile company that won Motor Trend's CoY on it's first real try. It's an amazing feat. How is it that wifi doesn't work yet?

To get it out the door, they had to prioritize. Some things were left for later updates.

 

[swegman]

4G is not a simple s/w update. Lets be clear, the Tegra chip in the car does not support LTE. It does support 3G with HSDPA enhancement (what many refer to as 4G), but that is not true 4G. Heck, LTE as currently implemented is nt true 4G, but it is the closest thing available to the standard. In order to get LTE performance, the Tegra chip needs to be replaced. I had suggested to engineering that they make it available as a plug in module to permit easy upgrades. but Tesla elected not to. Thus, it is not as simp;e as swapping a module and loading new s/w in order to get LTE connectivity.

 

[arg]

4G is not a simple s/w update. Lets be clear, the Tegra chip in the car does not support LTE. It does support 3G with HSDPA enhancement (what many refer to as 4G), but that is not true 4G. Heck, LTE as currently implemented is nt true 4G, but it is the closest thing available to the standard. In order to get LTE performance, the Tegra chip needs to be replaced. I had suggested to engineering that they make it available as a plug in module to permit easy upgrades. but Tesla elected not to. Thus, it is not as simp;e as swapping a module and loading new s/w in order to get LTE connectivity.

Do you have info on how the 3G is implemented? The Tegra subsystem itself _is_ on a swappable module (at least, Nvidia quote Tesla as their lead customer for the automotive plug-in module that they have developed).

However, Tegra itself does not include any kind of cellular baseband (and the pictures of the module on Nvidia's site don't look like the module does either), so I assumed the cellular modem is in some other location.

It would be interesting to know how this is configured, though wherever it is the part must be swappable somehow for repair purposes.

 

[swegman]

Arg, I don't know how it is implemented. However, when I discussed it with the engineers, suggesting a plug-in module to permit easy upgrades, they nixed the idea, saying they were concerned about reliability due to vibrations. So my guess would be that the cellular chip is soldered to a board, and thus, not easily replaced.

 

[Rich105]

Tegra3 does not have an integrated baseband (uses a discrete radio). Tegra3 does support LTE if you couple it with an LTE radio (such as the recent One X+).

 

[PureAmps]

4G is not a simple s/w update. Lets be clear, the Tegra chip in the car does not support LTE. It does support 3G with HSDPA enhancement (what many refer to as 4G), but that is not true 4G. Heck, LTE as currently implemented is nt true 4G, but it is the closest thing available to the standard. In order to get LTE performance, the Tegra chip needs to be replaced. I had suggested to engineering that they make it available as a plug in module to permit easy upgrades. but Tesla elected not to. Thus, it is not as simp;e as swapping a module and loading new s/w in order to get LTE connectivity.

The Tegra is the main/graphics processor, not the mobile baseband module. As I posted earlier in the thread, the mobile chipset is the Sierra Wireless AR8550. For Europe/Asia they will have to use the AR8552 due to different wireless frequencies used. Because there will a different chipset for each geographic region, I suspect the wireless module is on a separate board and not soldered on the "main" circuit board.

 

[Robert.Boston]

GeorgeB announced that Signatures were all getting a free year of connectivity; excellent. With Production vehicles now being delivered, but connectivity pricing not yet revealed, I was wondering what was going on. I asked my DS:

Q. What's the deal with wireless connectivity? I know that Sigs are getting theirs free for the first year, but I haven't heard anything about costs to General Production owners. Is 3G activated on my car?

A. As far as I know, 3G is active on all cars currently in production. Once the connectivity plans are announced, we will both have more info on the cost/time frame for signing up. We hope to have those announced at some point in December, but if waiting until January means we can get a better deal for our customers, we will wait.

 

[Raven]

3G....provider and packages?

I just can't seem to find it. How are we setting up the 3G service and what kind of packages are we looking at?

 

[GDH]

I just can't seem to find it. How are we setting up the 3G service and what kind of packages are we looking at?

I thought I read somewhere that Tesla was annoucing that today along with the extended warranty options, but I could be wrong.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I just can't seem to find it. How are we setting up the 3G service and what kind of packages are we looking at?

Currently, all cars are being delivered with an active 3G package carried at Tesla's expense. As @GDH notes, we should be hearing something about the 3G plan soon.

 

[Petrokalis]

Currently, all cars are being delivered with an active 3G package carried at Tesla's expense. As @GDH notes, we should be hearing something about the 3G plan soon.

When I took delivery at the factory on 12/23, my DS [actually the Model S product manager acting as a DS] told me that Tesla was offering a preview of 3G for 90 days. This included 2 3G connections: one for service and software updates and a second for data (Slacker, Web, etc.). After 90 days Tesla would offer two options:

* Pay some monthly fee [undisclosed] to Tesla continue to get the current service with no changes.
* Pay some smaller monthly fee [also undisclosed] to Tesla just for the 'service feed' and use a tethering plan provided by the owner for the data.

So, this would seem to indicate that some time within the first 90 days of the first production delivery we should have an official plan and announcement from Tesla on this.

It also would imply that we should have working WiFi by then too for tethering to even be an option.

 

[swegman]

I thought Tesla always said that the "service feed" would be provided regardless of whether an owner purchased web service, so that they could push firmware updates and monitor the vehicle. Is this no longer true? I hope Tesla is not changing tunes in the middle.