Consumer Reports Best Cars of 2015

[russman]

I agree with dirkhh in the sense that my Tesla since ownership has been in for more warranty related items then any of my other cars. Tesla has taken great care and I've been fine with it. I think most of us are more forgiving of Tesla, but my Acura, Infiniti, and Honda had very few "issues" that I needed resolve during the life of the vehicles. With the Tesla I just keep a list of little things that are problematic and when they build up to a point I think it's worth taking in, I setup an appointment. The odd thing is that appointment is usually 1-3 months out since they are booked solid here. I have the balloon squeal at high acceleration that wasn't there before, so have an appointment coming up in Jan.

On the other hand, I've had to take those ice cars in for regular oil changes and such, that I haven't had to take my Tesla in for.... so not sure. In the end the big concern for me is after warranty costs, that's about it.

 

[green1]

I agree with dirkhh in the sense that my Tesla since ownership has been in for more warranty related items then any of my other cars. Tesla has taken great care and I've been fine with it. I think most of us are more forgiving of Tesla, but my Acura, Infiniti, and Honda had very few "issues" that I needed resolve during the life of the vehicles. With the Tesla I just keep a list of little things that are problematic and when they build up to a point I think it's worth taking in, I setup an appointment. The odd thing is that appointment is usually 1-3 months out since they are booked solid here. I have the balloon squeal at high acceleration that wasn't there before, so have an appointment coming up in Jan.

On the other hand, I've had to take those ice cars in for regular oil changes and such, that I haven't had to take my Tesla in for.... so not sure. In the end the big concern for me is after warranty costs, that's about it.

I wonder if part of the difference is that you ICE would be in the shop every 3-6 months for an oil change anyway, so issues never accumulate longer than that, and you don't think of it the same way because they deal with it while it's in anyway, when it's not in and you actually have to book an appointment for these things you start to notice them more?

 

[jerry33]

I wonder if part of the difference is that you ICE would be in the shop every 3-6 months for an oil change anyway, so issues never accumulate longer than that, and you don't think of it the same way because they deal with it while it's in anyway, when it's not in and you actually have to book an appointment for these things you start to notice them more?

That's probably true. However, my car hasn't had any more problems than any other car I've driven and far fewer than some.

 

[dirkhh]

I wonder if part of the difference is that you ICE would be in the shop every 3-6 months for an oil change anyway, so issues never accumulate longer than that, and you don't think of it the same way because they deal with it while it's in anyway, when it's not in and you actually have to book an appointment for these things you start to notice them more?

My Tesla is in the "shop" every 4 months for the tire rotation and half yearly service. Plus six additional visits for the P85D and five for the 60.
My last car before that, a 325i BMW got an oil change every 12 months (as recommended by BMW) and in 11 years of ownership was in the shop three times total outside of those regular ONCE A YEAR visits.
So on the BMW 14 visits in 11 years, on the two Model S 6 scheduled visits plus 11 unscheduled ones for 17 visits in 2.5 years.

Look, I love Tesla as much as anyone else with thirtytwohundred posts here... but please stay at least somewhat connected to reality. If this wasn't a car that I love from a company that I admire I'd call both of my Model S pieces of rotten garbage and lemons off the assembly line. It is completely ridiculous that I know all of the staff in the service center by name and vice versa. And this is not explained by "Tesla going the extra mile to make me happy". My driver side door STILL isn't aligned with the car and sticks out about 5mm when closed and my breaks still sound like I am driving a Yugo, screeching and screaming when I roll down the driveway and whenever I come to a stop at a corner. My rear lights are / were fogged up in both cars, the 60 had a rattle in the dash board that no one had any idea how to address.

Tesla is a young company, trying to grow fast, trying to push the envelope in many areas, and a lot more focused on the "next shiny thing" than on figuring out the last 5% of delivering reliable high end luxury vehicles.

 

[qwk]

My Tesla is in the "shop" every 4 months for the tire rotation and half yearly service. Plus six additional visits for the P85D and five for the 60.
My last car before that, a 325i BMW got an oil change every 12 months (as recommended by BMW) and in 11 years of ownership was in the shop three times total outside of those regular ONCE A YEAR visits.
So on the BMW 14 visits in 11 years, on the two Model S 6 scheduled visits plus 11 unscheduled ones for 17 visits in 2.5 years.

Look, I love Tesla as much as anyone else with thirtytwohundred posts here... but please stay at least somewhat connected to reality. If this wasn't a car that I love from a company that I admire I'd call both of my Model S pieces of rotten garbage and lemons off the assembly line. It is completely ridiculous that I know all of the staff in the service center by name and vice versa. And this is not explained by "Tesla going the extra mile to make me happy". My driver side door STILL isn't aligned with the car and sticks out about 5mm when closed and my breaks still sound like I am driving a Yugo, screeching and screaming when I roll down the driveway and whenever I come to a stop at a corner. My rear lights are / were fogged up in both cars, the 60 had a rattle in the dash board that no one had any idea how to address.

Tesla is a young company, trying to grow fast, trying to push the envelope in many areas, and a lot more focused on the "next shiny thing" than on figuring out the last 5% of delivering reliable high end luxury vehicles.

This pretty much sums it up. The car drives better than any car on the road, but has more problems than most cars put together (most are simple engineering fixes that are still unresolved). Tesla is focused on chasing new customers rather than focusing on keeping existing ones.

 

[mspohr]

This pretty much sums it up. The car drives better than any car on the road, but has more problems than most cars put together (most are simple engineering fixes that are still unresolved). Tesla is focused on chasing new customers rather than focusing on keeping existing ones.

The high customer satisfaction rating shows that they are focused on keeping customers happy by proactive service. They do have more problems but they fix them and customers stay loyal and happy. That's why they are supply constrained, not demand constrained.

 

[qwk]

The high customer satisfaction rating shows that they are focused on keeping customers happy by proactive service. They do have more problems but they fix them and customers stay loyal and happy. That's why they are supply constrained, not demand constrained.

If they were supply constrained, there wouldn't be any need for referral credits, and lies about vehicle specs and so on. Whether one wants to admit it, the Model S comes with a bunch of compromises compared to conventional vehicles. Everyone has a threshold whether ownership is worth it with these compromises....

 

[dirkhh]

If they were supply constrained, there wouldn't be any need for referral credits, and lies about vehicle specs and so on. Whether one wants to admit it, the Model S comes with a bunch of compromises compared to conventional vehicles. Everyone has a threshold whether ownership is worth it with these compromises....

Yes, I think it is quite clear that while the Model X right now is clearly supply constrained, Tesla is worried that the Model S might not be much longer. So they are adding some incentives to make sure it stays that way.

 

[Yonki]

You both make a very good point. Tesla chose to replace those drive units. They don't get to have both, perfect customer satisfaction and perfect reliability score. But that's what you are saying they should be awarded.
You see? If they didn't choose to replace those units, they might have had lower customer satisfaction. They chose to replace them, they got the higher customer satisfaction, but as a consequence of that action it's only reasonable to ding them on reliability.

Not necessarily. If they're replacing a drive unit because it failed, of course that's a reliability issue. If your car's in the shop for routine maintenance and they replace the drive unit because it's louder than it should be, or even if they proactively replace the DU because they're worried about its long-term reliability, I wouldn't consider that a "reliability issue" because it didn't impact my usage or enjoyment of the car.

They could be sneaking into my garage every night and rebuilding parts of my car - if it doesn't inconvenience me, it's not a reliability issue (though it is a spending issue that affects Tesla's margins).

 

[mspohr]

If they were supply constrained, there wouldn't be any need for referral credits, and lies about vehicle specs and so on. Whether one wants to admit it, the Model S comes with a bunch of compromises compared to conventional vehicles. Everyone has a threshold whether ownership is worth it with these compromises....

So far there are a lot of people who are happy with the "compromise". I think Tesla is a long way from the day when we will see dealer lots full of new Tesla's for sale like every other car dealership. Then I'll believe that they are not supply constrained.

 

[dirkhh]

Not necessarily. If they're replacing a drive unit because it failed, of course that's a reliability issue. If your car's in the shop for routine maintenance and they replace the drive unit because it's louder than it should be, or even if they proactively replace the DU because they're worried about its long-term reliability, I wouldn't consider that a "reliability issue" because it didn't impact my usage or enjoyment of the car.

They could be sneaking into my garage every night and rebuilding parts of my car - if it doesn't inconvenience me, it's not a reliability issue (though it is a spending issue that affects Tesla's margins).

You didn't read anything that I wrote, right? That's ok - I rest my case.

 

[WarpedOne]

You didn't read anything that I wrote, right? That's ok - I rest my case.

You wrote :

You see? If they didn't choose to replace those units, they might have had lower customer satisfaction. They chose to replace them, they got the higher customer satisfaction, but as a consequence of that action it's only reasonable to ding them on reliability.

That is just wrong because it is a sum of apples and bulldozers. No, it is not reasonable to ding them to reliability.
Unreliable thing is a thing you cannot rely on because it fails too often. If units get replaced without actually failing in their main purpose i.e. propelling the car, than they ain't failed and they ain't unreliable.
They might be unsuitable, inconvenient, unpolished, problematic or whatever, just not unreliable.

I'll grant you dinging them to reliability when any ICE engine is replaced on warranty just because the owner does not like its noise. Reliability metric would then be comparable.
Without that, it is unfair comparison and a disservice to future customers i.e. a lie.

I drive an ICE car that experiences intermittent power loss between 2000 and 2500 rpm. It happens often but not every time. It is so severe that if it happens during an overtaking maneuver it is downright dangerous, because it considerably hinders acceleration that I expected from it. It has been into service multiple times already and they have no clue what is wrong. No word about replacing the DU ehm, engine though. On BS reliablity metric my engine is reliable because it ain't failed catastrophicaly yet and replacement cost is so absurdly high that manufacturer wouldn't even dream about it. I'd argue my engine problem is far more serous than just some added noise. But if you ask that reliability, my engine does better. BS.

 

[smac]

I completely agree with DirkH here

I'm in the 97% who would buy another Tesla right now. But, and it's a big one, I do so because there is literally no competition. So Tesla (and it's fans) shouldn't become complacent

Tesla have 100% achieved one of their stated goals: I'm sold on EV drivetrains, and whatever my next daily driver is this is now a mandatory requirement. However it can't be wrapped up in a goofy body shell, or have <150 miles of real world range.

In terms of dealer visits, compared to my last daily driver (A Nissan Frontier) the difference is chalk and cheese. It got dropped off at my office on day of delivery, 2 years later the dealer came and picked it up for it's 2yr/24k mile service interval (leaving me a courtesy car). End of year 3 it was collected. For me this is the "gold standard" they should be aiming for.

Personally I think there are two areas ripe for improvement that Tesla management should focus on:

1) Poor QC control at the factory door
The doors on my car didn't line up (sounds common)
The high level brake lights didn't all illuminate (again common)

2) Fundamental design issues
Fogging light clusters. "Fixed" once but recurring.
Grating door handles. "Fixed" once but recurring.
Dash rattles. "Fixed" once but recurring.

I've also had some spurious issues that I don't know where I'd suggest Tesla look to improve. (failed onboard chargers)

I'd hoped Factory QC had been fixed, maybe it's improved, but I've certainly heard of a few recent P85D owners with similar problems. They then fall on the rushed SC staff to fix post delivery, leaving brand new Teslas driving on the roads for weeks with misaligned panels.... It really isn't a great advert for a "quality product"

I'm sure Tesla are working on the design issues (e.g. redesigned boot chrome which now don't fog). How/if these can be applied to the existing fleet as permanent fixes will be interesting.

Luckily I haven't had a drivetrain issue, but I'm expecting it at some point, as I suspect it's part of the design area in need of improvement. If will take a while for whatever the root cause is/was to spread across the fleet if it has been designed out (btw it seems unlikely to just be a washer, or replacements done since this was discovered wouldn't also fail, and 2015 PD cars would have been 100% reliable )

 

[mspohr]

This poll seems to show that the drive unit issues have been addressed.
Drive unit replacement - getting better? - View Poll Results
Only two reports in 2015. Most problems in 2013 and early 2014.

 

[smac]

This poll seems to show that the drive unit issues have been addressed.
Drive unit replacement - getting better? - View Poll Results
Only two reports in 2015. Most problems in 2013 and early 2014.

Certainly encouraging.

What it doesn't however show is the % of 2013/14 drive units which will eventually go bang, if those owners had more than one replacement, and if they did was it a refurbed 2013/14 unit that will eventually go wrong again, or a new improved 2015 version which finally fixes the issue once and for all.


One thing we know with absolute certainty is the workshops at the Service Centres are brimmed to capacity, and it's hard to think all they are doing is routine service "inspection".

One example I've experienced is my car was when in just went for a service (2 month wait). Whilst it was there they replaced the front suspension for a redesigned part (not that I'd noticed anything wrong with it or asked them to do so) but there is a known issue where a bolt rubs the wishbone on all cars made up until 2015.

So instead of being an in and out job, the "service" took 2 days. No wonder there are delays on minor works

 

[ecarfan]

Whether one wants to admit it, the Model S comes with a bunch of compromises compared to conventional vehicles. Everyone has a threshold whether ownership is worth it with these compromises....

Since owning an S and then also a Roadster, my eyes have been opened to the fact that all ICE cars are an archaic mass of crappy compromises that I will no longer tolerate.
Every vehicle is a compromise in multiple ways. I prefer to drive Teslas.
As to Tesla instituting a referral program to boost S sales because they are afraid that sales will fall, I strongly disagree. Tesla wants to sell more cars. Obviously. So far they have been selling by word of mouth and positive reviews, with no conventional advertising. The fact that such an approach has led to a start up auto company selling many tens of thousands of EVs annually at an average price of around $90K is astonishing.
But that approach can only take sales so far. Adding a referral program is a simple and effective way to increase sales. It is not a sign that S sales are falling. Tesla has expanded production capacity and simply wants to grow and sell more cars.

 

[Krugerrand]

Certainly encouraging.

That's dismissive. It's not encouraging, it's a fact.

What it doesn't however show is the % of 2013/14 drive units which will eventually go bang...

Who cares? Old news. Water under the bridge. In the past. Can we not accept the truth of the matter, that Tesla has addressed the issue? Must we rehash it every week like clockwork and continue to snipe about something that's done and over with? Can we move on? Or must Tesla carry this burden their entire existence because some can't drop the bone?

 

[Yonki]

You didn't read anything that I wrote, right? That's ok - I rest my case.

??? Please don't ever defend me in a court of law.

Maybe this is a more clear way to explain it:
Reliability issues that customers notice or are affected by should be considered reliability issues by Consumer Reports.
Reliability issues that customers don't notice or aren't affected by shouldn't be considered reliability issues by Consumer Reports.
Both of the above types of issues should/would be considered reliability issues by Tesla and would be opportunities to increase profit margins.

 

[smac]

That's dismissive.

I didn't mean to be dismissive. You are being far too sensitive.

(I see you added this in, presumably to come across as less aggressive)
No it isn't it's a very small sample size, with confirmation bias, that has implicit data distribution issues based on the problem being wear related. (and hence time skewed)

You are one of the first to jump on polls if they are not in Tesla's favor for exactly these reasons!!

Who cares? Old news. Water under the bridge. In the past. Can we not accept the truth of the matter, that Tesla has addressed the issue? Must we rehash it every week like clockwork and continue to snipe about something that's done and over with? Can we move on? Or must Tesla carry this burden their entire existence because some can't drop the bone?

Do you own a Model S?

Did it turn up not put together properly?

Have you had to drive back and forward for 00's of miles to get it fixed?

Are you waiting months to get things repaired at the SC?

Has it failed to meet your expectations of quality / reliability?


TBH I almost sold my Tesla because of these sorts of issue, so yes I feel strongly about it. Tesla haven't won me around, simply using the car has.



Anyway is it unbelievable that just because Elon said it's top priority in a tweet it hasn't miraculously been fixed overnight?

Yes make allowances for them being a new company, yes give them a pass because the service centres are dealing with customers in a friendly way, but again let's not be complacent and think every thing is fixed.

It will take a lot of time and continued focus from senior management down to turn things around, while at the same time rushing headlong into ever more products, this is going to be really really hard. To say this is water under the bridge is incredibly naive.

Can Tesla do it I genuinely hope so. I really don't want to go through the pain of getting another Tesla in 18 months time and find bits fall off again.

 

[WarpedOne]

TBH I almost sold my Tesla because of these sorts of issue, so yes I feel strongly about it.

You have every right to feel strongly about issues you have had.
There is still wrong to turn non-issues into issues just becaue there are other real issues.