Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average

[neptune2000]

I spent last night reading the hundreds of messages on two major forum threads related to the CR removal from recommendation:


http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55988-Consumer-Reports-reliability-of-Model-S-worse-than-average (this forum)


http://my.teslamotors.com/jp/forum/forums/consumer-reports-tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance-recommendation


This is my take on it:


- The reports from owners in the forums mostly match what found by Consumer Reports


- The reason for the downgrade is the difference in reliability reported this year vs. last year on the earlier models (the 2012 and 2013 Teslas)


- the 30,000 or so 2012-2013 Teslas have a LOT of problems and these problems are getting worse with age


- The major problems of the early Teslas are rattles, the 12V battery, the pano roof, and most of all the drive unit, that requires continuous replacement (under warranty so far)


- It is clear that the early models are what we would call “early adopters” cars. They will likely continue to get worse as the years pass by and will have low resale value when the warranties expire in 2016 and 2017


- Tesla has been incredible at fixing these cars in a heartbeat all under warranty, effectively with no questions asked. That is probably the reason why 97% of these owners would still buy the Tesla again, even with all the problems.


- The later models (2014, 2015) mostly have much less problems (especially on the 3 items of drive unit, 12V battery and rattles) and they are comparable with the ones exhibited by similar cars from BMW and Mercedes


- The people that have BOTH an early adopter model and a later model report dramatic differences in reliability between the two

Comments?

 

[trils0n]

@neptune2000 -- seems to be about right -- check out my reliability comparison graphic a few posts before yours. Basically shows the same things.

Newer Model Years are more reliable. Cars develop new issues and/or issues increase in frequency as they age (not really a surprise) (represented by red lines in my graphic). Some initial / early problems appear to be fixed or reduce in frequency (green lines).

 

[ggies07]

I spent last night reading the hundreds of messages on two major forum threads related to the CR removal from recommendation:


http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55988-Consumer-Reports-reliability-of-Model-S-worse-than-average (this forum)


http://my.teslamotors.com/jp/forum/forums/consumer-reports-tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance-recommendation


This is my take on it:


- The reports from owners in the forums mostly match what found by Consumer Reports


- The reason for the downgrade is the difference in reliability reported this year vs. last year on the earlier models (the 2012 and 2013 Teslas)


- the 30,000 or so 2012-2013 Teslas have a LOT of problems and these problems are getting worse with age


- The major problems of the early Teslas are rattles, the 12V battery, the pano roof, and most of all the drive unit, that requires continuous replacement (under warranty so far)


- It is clear that the early models are what we would call “early adopters” cars. They will likely continue to get worse as the years pass by and will have low resale value when the warranties expire in 2016 and 2017


- Tesla has been incredible at fixing these cars in a heartbeat all under warranty, effectively with no questions asked. That is probably the reason why 97% of these owners would still buy the Tesla again, even with all the problems.


- The later models (2014, 2015) mostly have much less problems (especially on the 3 items of drive unit, 12V battery and rattles) and they are comparable with the ones exhibited by similar cars from BMW and Mercedes


- The people that have BOTH an early adopter model and a later model report dramatic differences in reliability between the two

Comments?

@neptune2000 -- seems to be about right -- check out my reliability comparison graphic a few posts before yours. Basically shows the same things.

Newer Model Years are more reliable. Cars develop new issues and/or issues increase in frequency as they age (not really a surprise) (represented by red lines in my graphic). Some initial / early problems appear to be fixed or reduce in frequency (green lines).

So if this really is the case, then CR's 2016 conclusion is wrong, and they created a $20 drop in the share price. Should they be held responsible or at least change their outlook? They can graph all the want, but it seems their 2016 conclusion really created the problem.

 

[trils0n]

So if this really is the case, then CR's 2016 conclusion is wrong, and they created a $20 drop in the share price. Should they be held responsible or at least change their outlook? They can graph all the want, but it seems their 2016 conclusion really created the problem.

Not so sure. If a CR subscriber has access to the newer survey data I'd like to see the updated scores for 2012 cars, and could add to my graphic. If the 2012 are doing worse than the 2013 cars it is probably part of the "trend" CR noted of the cars not doing well as they age. (I don't think this is necessarily representative of future cars, or even a trend. Tesla changes much quicker than the rest of the industry. Plus in 2012 Tesla was an unknown company, with problems attracting good suppliers. I would assume at least some issues, like the 12v battery, TPMS, were related to not being able to attract top tier vendors). It is concerning to see an increase in Drive System problems after only one or two years.

But we will need to wait to next year to get updated info on 2015 cars to see how their reliability is doing over time, and to get further data on the 2013s and 2014s.

 

[Super_Popular]

I don't care what CR says, I have owned 5 Tesla's and excited to get my 6th. All the issues I have had have been minor (luckily) and Tesla as fixed them with ease.

 

[Tony8489]

- the 30,000 or so 2012-2013 Teslas have a LOT of problems and these problems are getting worse with age....... It is clear that the early models are what we would call “early adopters” cars.

This is the EXACT scenario of my 1978 SAAB Turbo.

- The later models (2014, 2015) mostly have much less problems (especially on the 3 items of drive unit, 12V battery and rattles) and they are comparable with the ones exhibited by similar cars from BMW and Mercedes

I can more than live with that for enjoying the revolutionary technology. The comparative chart posted by Trils0n is trending in the right direction.

I really think this drive unit thing is what is scaring people the most, and I also believe it is a huge misunderstanding that Tesla could clear up by releasing some clarifying information.

It's certainly the one big item that has caught my attention. We have not seen enough data to tell whether drive unit reliability has been resolved in newer cars. Tesla knows the answer to this but presumably keeps it a secret because they don't want to raise the public profile of the issue. But extending the longer battery warranty to the drive unit had to be a tacit admission.

I have also read speculation that the D models might stress the drive units less by distributing all that torque between two units rather than just one.

My intense research over the past month has so far increased the odds I will place an order soon. Having the Burbank Supercharger/Service Center opening this week 3 miles from my home makes this a lot easier call for me than someone in Des Moines.

 

[neptune2000]

My intense research over the past month has so far increased the odds I will place an order soon. Having the Burbank Supercharger/Service Center opening this week 3 miles from my home makes this a lot easier call for me than someone in Des Moines.

Please note that use of "local" Superchargers (like one 3 miles from your home) is frowned upon by Tesla and you will eventually get a nasty letter from Tesla telling you to stop using them, and use your home charger unit instead.

 

[thegruf]

Please note that use of "local" Superchargers (like one 3 miles from your home) is frowned upon by Tesla and you will eventually get a nasty letter from Tesla telling you to stop using them, and use your home charger unit instead.

Whats "nasty" about getting a letter pointing out the Superchargers are intended for long trips not as a regular free top up within a few miles of home?
Sounds like a reasonable response to exploitation of fair use to me.

 

[crmatson]

OP should respond, but I think this was in reference to easy access to the Service Center, not the Supercharger.

Please note that use of "local" Superchargers (like one 3 miles from your home) is frowned upon by Tesla and you will eventually get a nasty letter from Tesla telling you to stop using them, and use your home charger unit instead.

 

[30seconds]

I spent last night reading the hundreds of messages on two major forum threads related to the CR removal from recommendation:


http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55988-Consumer-Reports-reliability-of-Model-S-worse-than-average (this forum)


http://my.teslamotors.com/jp/forum/forums/consumer-reports-tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance-recommendation


This is my take on it:


- The reports from owners in the forums mostly match what found by Consumer Reports


- The reason for the downgrade is the difference in reliability reported this year vs. last year on the earlier models (the 2012 and 2013 Teslas)


- the 30,000 or so 2012-2013 Teslas have a LOT of problems and these problems are getting worse with age


- The major problems of the early Teslas are rattles, the 12V battery, the pano roof, and most of all the drive unit, that requires continuous replacement (under warranty so far)


- It is clear that the early models are what we would call “early adopters” cars. They will likely continue to get worse as the years pass by and will have low resale value when the warranties expire in 2016 and 2017


- Tesla has been incredible at fixing these cars in a heartbeat all under warranty, effectively with no questions asked. That is probably the reason why 97% of these owners would still buy the Tesla again, even with all the problems.


- The later models (2014, 2015) mostly have much less problems (especially on the 3 items of drive unit, 12V battery and rattles) and they are comparable with the ones exhibited by similar cars from BMW and Mercedes


- The people that have BOTH an early adopter model and a later model report dramatic differences in reliability between the two

Comments?

Seems like the 12V issue is much less of an issue than a few years ago. Audi has yearly lubrication of the pano roof, so I'm not sure how much more of an issue Tesla has vs. other full pano implementations. One would hope (and it shouldn't be hard) that rattles can be fixed permanently by making small design changes.

The DU seems to be the most common, ongoing issue. This is an issue for owners post warranty period and can be a very serious cost issue for long term value.

 

[neptune2000]

OP should respond, but I think this was in reference to easy access to the Service Center, not the Supercharger.

Got it. My bad.

Indeed being close to one or more service center is definitely good. I'm in Redondo and I can pick either the Centinela or the Torrance Service Center and that's nice.

- - - Updated - - -

Whats "nasty" about getting a letter pointing out the Superchargers are intended for long trips not as a regular free top up within a few miles of home? Sounds like a reasonable response to exploitation of fair use to me.

Sorry if I sounded negative with the "nasty" comment. I totally agree that SuperChargers should be used for long trips only. I'm on SCE net metering since I have Solar, and the Tesla just costs me 15c per kWh, and it would definitely be inappropriate for me to charge in Torrance at the Supercharger.

 

[SethDiamond]

My P85 was purchased from the original owner (with whom I was well-acquainted, and I knew the car from purchase) with 75,000+ miles in July (job relocation overseas necessitated the sale). This vehicle was maintained/serviced pursuant to the Tesla suggested schedule; the high mileage was due to regular roundtrips from Hartford/NYC and Hartford/DC (primarily highway miles) - this car was NOT abused.

Thus far: repair of a "crimped" washer-fluid hose", and the replacement of the rear-light assembly (seals/gaskets had failed, and each side held a mosquito - reminded me of the scene in Jurassic Park with the Amber...) - and I added the Tesla "rear shelf." Work was done at two different locations (Dedham, MA and Paramus NJ), and repairs were "as expected" - no headaches, no hassles, repairs correctly handled each time.

Here's the "out of the ordinary" event that bears notice:

While in Paramus in late August, I mentioned to the service tech - in passing - that I "heard a very light hum/buzz sound when driving 23-28 mph" (seriously, only in that range). He test-drove the car (after installing the rear shelf), and he recorded it & sent the audio to CA. Ten days later, I received a call that my "rear drive unit needed to be replaced". A reconditioned (used case, new 2015 parts/technology) rear drive unit was sent to Milford CT (my choice as this is my local facility), and I made an appointment - only to be told the morning of the car drop-off (after I had confirmed the visit later in the day) that a "Service Bulletin" had just been received advising against using that particular motor - and that a replacement would be delivered next day. Due to scheduling issues, the work was done the following week - car was picked up at my office, a loaner was provided (2015 P85), and two days later the car was returned. Again: No headaches, no hassles, no problems - everything was explained in detail, a "full burn in" was conducted (almost 400 miles!), all is well.

The 8 year/Unlimited Mileage warranty is FOR REAL and IS HONORED start to finish.

Show me ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER that would honor this without the requisite BS ("it's a used car, it was probably abused, work wasn't done at an authorized repair facility/dealership..." etc) and all the years that would have been taken off my life arguing/fighting/threatening/letter-writing to get a satisfactory response. In the Tesla world, I mentioned a problem, it was checked out, I received a phone call, they told me it was covered under the warranty and that the unit was ordered and on its way (scheduled the repair at my convenience a few weeks out) and took care of it all. Incredible experience, and I'm not likely the only one... where was THIS in the Consumer Reports story?

In terms of other things on the horizon, I expect to place a set of Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D tires on my 19" replacement wheels (original owner blew a tire on a pothole and tossed the 21" OEM wheels into his garage), and next spring I will buy new 19" wheels and Michelin tires. I don't really expect much in the way of maintenance... my old Porsche is a money-pit, and this car can't POSSIBLY dig a deeper hole in my pocket, as it was produced this century and parts are readily available...

What might be a contributing factor to the Consumer Reports story - but really can't be explained in that framework - is the "newbie" phenomenon. I have now had several visits to the Superchargers on I-95, the Merritt Parkway and I-84/I-87 in NY and I have watched the new cars roll in... my take is that many new drivers seem to have no clue ("How do I charge my car here?" "Do you know how to turn off the radio?"). Makes me wonder whether the "Intro to your Tesla" training is useful, or if people just aren't paying attention... it's as if the resources on the Tesla Motors website just aren't being used by those who need them the most.

I just read this article that Consumer Reports says the Model S is worse than average, when it comes to reliability. Supposedly they surveyed 1400 MS owners:

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/20/lexus-rolls-tesla-stumbles-in-reliability-survey.html

I've been looking to buy a Model S the first part of next year, but this report, as well as fellow member's experiences on the forum are concerning.
What happens when the car is out of warranty and something major happens? I don't knw if one can purchase a lifetime warranty, but I've heard the Dodge does offer this, for 2-3K. Seems with it, as most anything mechanical will eventually break.
I recall the Tesla sales guy telling me that some Model S' in Norway (or somewhere overseas) where being used as taxis and had only to deal with changing tires, brakes & wipers with over 100K miles on them.
Anyone out there with a high mileage MS that can share your experiences as to pertains to reliability?

 

[rhumbliner]

I'm a long-time subscriber to CR but have always been skeptical of their auto reliability ratings because they've never (and I do mean never) matched my own experiences. Maybe I treat my vehicles better than most or maybe only CR subscribers with an axe to grind respond to the surveys. I just don't know.

Here's one example. I purchased a 1992 Chevy Blazer 1500 in late 1991 and owned it for just over 10 years. CR routinely rated that vehicle's reliability as much worse than average every year. Yet I had no problems with it. I often towed loaded auto dollies between Salt Lake City and Milwaukee so this was a true working truck. Never had brake problems, transmission problems, engine problems, or suspension problems. Nada. At approx 100,000 miles I turned it over to my son who put on another 50,000 miles. I believe he had some brake-work done but it was relatively minor. And I don't think this was a fluke. I can repeat this story for 2 other SUV's I've owned.

I still read CR for small appliances, but never for auto ratings.

 

[James Anders]

You actually do not know that--while we like to think of TMC as the Tesla universe, it only represents a small percentage of the owner population--there may very well be owners out there that have never had any problems. I would also venture this is an unrealistic expectation for any car.

Sure. But what I actually said was... I don't care if there are people out there with zero failures. It's good, of course, and the more people the better. But I'm more concerned with all the problems I am hearing about. And yes, I agree I have no idea what the true stats are.

I am basing my concerns on those who mention drive unit failures. I was heartened when Elon made a statement about the failures on the drive units and hope he provides an update on the situation.

 

[Breffni]

60,000 miles and not a single solitary item to complain about !! 60,000 insane miles

Have ordered my wife an X, will never buy another car with an engine !!! Ever. Its over.
B

I just read this article that Consumer Reports says the Model S is worse than average, when it comes to reliability. Supposedly they surveyed 1400 MS owners:

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/20/lexus-rolls-tesla-stumbles-in-reliability-survey.html

I've been looking to buy a Model S the first part of next year, but this report, as well as fellow member's experiences on the forum are concerning.
What happens when the car is out of warranty and something major happens? I don't knw if one can purchase a lifetime warranty, but I've heard the Dodge does offer this, for 2-3K. Seems with it, as most anything mechanical will eventually break.
I recall the Tesla sales guy telling me that some Model S' in Norway (or somewhere overseas) where being used as taxis and had only to deal with changing tires, brakes & wipers with over 100K miles on them.
Anyone out there with a high mileage MS that can share your experiences as to pertains to reliability?

 

[SUPRKAR]

I put very little stock in Consumers Reports automotive ratings.

I could not agree more. Be real people, how much does it cost to repair any high end car like Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche etc. Tesla is no different.

 

[wws]

As a prospective owner who had had first test drive a couple of weeks ago, I have a sense of deja vu. I was a proud owner of the first SAAB Turbo in 1978, the first production turbo after Porsche's in 1976. The turbo itself did not fail, but the stress and heat caused engine and transmission failures starting in 1981. The local dealer was not all that competent in repairs, so there were repeat failures. After protracted battles and 160 days of downtime in one year, including a small claims court case, I finally gave up and sold the SAAB in early 1983...

As an aside, I was the proud owner of a new 1978 Buick Regal Turbo. It and its LeSabre companion were the other 1978 turbo cars besides Porsche and Saab. That year was also a new body style for the Regal. I encountered a number of problems which should have been caught before the car was ever delivered. None were in the turbo motor itself and Buick fixed everything under warranty. Including the transmission which was replaced at 100 miles. (Yes, no typo.) In the end, I had a lot of fun with that car and no regrets on buying it. Having the manufacturer step up to correcting issues made all the difference.

 

[Doug_G]

- It is clear that the early models are what we would call “early adopters” cars. They will likely continue to get worse as the years pass by and will have low resale value when the warranties expire in 2016 and 2017

- Tesla has been incredible at fixing these cars in a heartbeat all under warranty, effectively with no questions asked. That is probably the reason why 97% of these owners would still buy the Tesla again, even with all the problems.

Well, you're right about that. I have an early model, and I anticipated there would be teething pains at the beginning, but expected things to improve over time. That's not really happened. Right now, while waiting a few weeks for a part to come in for a minor repair, two new problems have appeared.

That said, Tesla has done a really great job with the service. Usually any inconvenience is trivial; they bring a loaner and take my car back for service. Most of the stuff has been minor; only once did I have a major failure leaving me stranded in the middle of the road (couldn't even make the shoulder), but even then the car was picked up within the hour.

I love the car, but I am getting concerned about the frequency of service. I have the full 8 year anywhere service and extended warranty. Boy that was a good idea! It expires in December 2020. But I'm thinking maybe I should sell the car at the 5 year mark, so there will be 3 years left on the service plan and warranty. That should make it easier to sell.

 

[mknox]

Right now, while waiting a few weeks for a part to come in for a minor repair, two new problems have appeared.

That said, Tesla has done a really great job with the service. Usually any inconvenience is trivial; they bring a loaner and take my car back for service. Most of the stuff has been minor; only once did I have a major failure leaving me stranded in the middle of the road (couldn't even make the shoulder), but even then the car was picked up within the hour.

Sorry to hear that, Doug. Mine is just a couple of months newer than yours and I have also had one "left me stranded" issue (main contactor failure) and a bunch of minor stuff, but I think I'm over the hump. Aside from a noisy (second) drive unit that I'm waiting to have replaced, it's been pretty good for the last year or so. Just a tick under 100,000 km on the clock.

 

[cwerdna]

My P85 was purchased from the original owner (with whom I was well-acquainted, and I knew the car from purchase) with 75,000+ miles in July (job relocation overseas necessitated the sale). This vehicle was maintained/serviced pursuant to the Tesla suggested schedule
...
Show me ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER that would honor this without the requisite BS ("it's a used car, it was probably abused, work wasn't done at an authorized repair facility/dealership..." etc) and all the years that would have been taken off my life arguing/fighting/threatening/letter-writing to get a satisfactory response. In the Tesla world, I mentioned a problem, it was checked out, I received a phone call, they told me it was covered under the warranty and that the unit was ordered and on its way (scheduled the repair at my convenience a few weeks out) and took care of it all.

I've never had trouble w/getting warranty work done on any the car's I've personally owned (Toyotas and Nissans). But then again, I try to avoid dealers w/known bad service departments. (Yes, there are definitely some.) The warranty's there for a purpose.

BTW, AFAIK, there are no other authorized repair facilities for Teslas, beyond say the tires.

Incredible experience, and I'm not likely the only one... where was THIS in the Consumer Reports story?

I wouldn't call that incredible. I call it normal. But again, the survey was about reliability. And, in the story at Tesla Reliability Doesn’t Match Its High Performance - Consumer Reports they said

Despite the problems, our data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again. It appears that Tesla has been responsive to replacing faulty motors, differentials, brakes, and infotainment systems, all with a minimum of fuss to owners.

And Tesla’s attention to customer service has been effective. Almost every survey respondent made note of Tesla’s rapid response and repair time, despite the lack of a traditional dealer service network. For its early adopters, Tesla has made a practice of overdelivering on service problems under the factory warranty, as noted by these owners:

“A minor amount of play developed in the differential gears. Tesla replaced the entire drive system. Remarkable service!”

And:

“Had a creaking ball joint in the driver[-side] front lower control arm. Tesla replaced it the following day after they were notified.”

When asked for a comment, a Tesla spokesperson said in an email, “Close communication with our customers enables Tesla to receive input, proactively address issues, and quickly fix problems. Model S over-the-air software updates allow Tesla to diagnose and fix most bugs without the need to come in for service. In instances when hardware needs to be fixed, we keep the customer’s convenience and satisfaction top of mind.”