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Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average

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And please...can we agree that personal anecdotal "I have no problems at all" posts are really missing the point. I'm sure there are numerous owners without problems just as I am sure there are many new owners with problems that should have been put to bed a long time ago.
Only if we can also agree that personal anecdotal "I have had lots of problems" posts are also missing the point.

Fleet reliability is the whole fleet, it's not measured by any one vehicle, and without a whole lot of controls, the plural of anecdote is not data.
 
Have had our MS for 18 months, 14,000 miles. No issues. Interesting that CR also said that despite the issues, 98% of owners were still satisfied and liked the car. Remember in the propulsion system there are a reported 10,000 moving parts in an ICE that can fail, but only 18 in a Tesla.

And isn't that the point? Those 18 parts should be bulletproof and trouble free by now. We should be seeing precious few drive train problems that are just random failures and not indicative of an ongoing endemic problem.
 
@omarsultan Just curious if you have had any issues and if so what they have been with your particular MS. I ask b/c my MS was built 2k after yours going by your listed VIN and well just curious as we are in a close build cycle?

A fine question. :)

For context, I have a July 2013 build with 67K miles on it. I have had it in for the following warranty/ESA items:
1) Drive unit replaced for the "drone" at about ~10K mile mark
2) Driver seat controls started working intermittently at ~30K mark - wiring harness connector/wire was loose
3) 12V battery warning at ~40K mile mark - replaced by ranger before it died
4) TMPS sensor warning at ~50K mark - battery died in one sensor, replaced the sensor
5) My driver side mirror got stuck (would not move left/right) at ~65K miles - they managed to unstick it, so no repair/replacement needed

I have had the battery pack contactor replacement (not sure how you want to count that). Beyond that, I have had random service bulletins applied (nothing major) and little stuff like having them lube the pano roof tracks.

For me, the relevant point is time without a car: 0
 
Only if we can also agree that personal anecdotal "I have had lots of problems" posts are also missing the point.

Fleet reliability is the whole fleet, it's not measured by any one vehicle, and without a whole lot of controls, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Yeah, but what's you're point? That based on the entire fleet there are no reliability problems? That CR isn't getting right data? That the numerous reports on this forum of continued failures aren't to be considered?

Unfortunately, I don't have access to fleet reliability records. I don't know if drive unit failures per miles of driving is increasing or decreasing. Tesla should know.
 
dont be. You'll love the car. I've got 60k and very few service visits.
I also should've done over 10 oil changes by now...

Fred, that's great. Really it is. But it really doesn't reduce my concern or fears (perhaps it will for maxdrive10). My concern isn't that there's no one out there with cars with zero failures. It's that there are seemingly a significant number of ongoing problems that haven't been fixed - or they have been fixed and we don't know it yet. I think and dream about getting my Tesla probably every day and it's just frustrating. Perhaps I will win the lottery and then I can buy my P90DL and not have to worry.
 
The quality issue is indeed separate and distinct from Autopilot. But would you agree introducing and promoting Autopilot is made more challenging when ongoing quality problems plague the company?
I do not agree. Autopilot R&D is a separate issue from reducing "body integrity" problems (squeaks and rattles, which my 2013 S does not have, by the way) and I for one am glad that Tesla is forging ahead with creating the world's best self driving (not YET "autonomous") car!
 
I just ordered a new Model S yesterday. This thread scares me.

I have had two electric vehicles prior to the Tesla. Both were e-bikes, and both needed battery replacements while the Optibike also needed a motor replacement, after relatively light use. Any brand new technology is going to have some growing pains and some unanticipated problems. The technology is not mature enough to assume cheap service costs just because of the lack of moving parts compared to an ICE. That said, I am frankly amazed that Tesla's reliability is as good as it is. My anecdotal report after delivery last month: car is solid and works perfectly. You are going to LOVE it.
 
Fred, that's great. Really it is. But it really doesn't reduce my concern or fears (perhaps it will for maxdrive10). My concern isn't that there's no one out there with cars with zero failures. It's that there are seemingly a significant number of ongoing problems that haven't been fixed - or they have been fixed and we don't know it yet. I think and dream about getting my Tesla probably every day and it's just frustrating. Perhaps I will win the lottery and then I can buy my P90DL and not have to worry.

I know lots of owners. Tesla's are numerous here. No one I know has a lemon (car with persistent issues). Tesla service fixes any issues. Everyone I know loves their car. 97% satisfaction is certainly true by my experience.
 
My concern isn't that there's no one out there with cars with zero failures.

You actually do not know that--while we like to think of TMC as the Tesla universe, it only represents a small percentage of the owner population--there may very well be owners out there that have never had any problems. I would also venture this is an unrealistic expectation for any car.
 
I am still trying to wrap my mind around the "worse than average" rating that CR announced.
I have had my car for 3 years and found my car to be better than my previous cars. of course that 3 years has seen some growing pains for tesla and the MS.

a bad batch of 12V batteries (replaced without me asking)
door handles that were replaced (without me asking)
I haven't had any rattles and squeaks, it is so quiet I hear the wind flowing past the car.
in an ICE vehicle the rattles and squeaks come from the front engine compartment covering up many from inside the passenger cabin.

I believe the cars being built today are better than my 3 year old car.

do the issues I have had, and heard others have had, justify such a harsh score? I think that is the reason for many MS owners to weigh in on this issue.
many of the issues reported are minor issues (like a bad switch or loose screw) easily fixed and worthy of mention to CR but not major. it seems like CRs scoring system is giving those issues the same rank as something major like replacing the drive motor.

so what exactly to they mean when they say that reliability is "worse than average". I would at least say fair or good.
 
So that is the CR data on the Model S? I must be missing something. On a 1 to 5 scale the car averages 4.3, with solid 5's and 4's for major systems, but a 2 for one item "Body Integrity" and CR says the car is worse than average?What is "average"? I need to read the entire report, apparently.
The average problem rates are listed in the chart (titled exactly that) at Car Reliability History | Detailed Ratings - Consumer Reports, by model year.

There, they also say "Because problems with the engine major, cooling system, transmission major, and drive system can be serious and expensive to repair, our calculations give extra weight to problems in those areas."

From the table, for a '15, almost every system has an average problem rate of under 1% (not sure how much under 1%). 3 of them are 1% and audio system is 2%. So, if you could imagine that some '15 car had even a 1% problem rate on many systems and maybe even a few with 2% to boot, that would definitely make a car well below average.
- - - Updated - - -

I am not going to go all fanboi on CR, but the engineer in me does not quite understand the logic of the rating:

View attachment 98595
(source: Consumer Reports, http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/tesla-model-s-reliability.htm)
...
On a side note, as much as folks keep calling out the drive system, it has trended up from "fair" to "excellent".
No, it hasn't. Compare the drive unit rating on the '13 and '14 at Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average - Page 2 to the above. Very good turned into fair on the '13. Excellent turned into very good on '14.

But that's not really what's important. From what I understand about their survey and backed up by Car Reliability History | Detailed Ratings - Consumer Reports
These charts are based on more than 740,000 responses to our 2015 Annual Auto Survey conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center. Consumer Reports subscribers reported on any serious problems they had with their vehicles during the past 12 months that they considered serious because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime, in any of the trouble spots included in the table below.

The scores in the charts are based on the percentage of respondents who reported problems in each of the 17 trouble spots. Because high-mileage cars tend to encounter more problems than low-mileage cars, problem rates are standardized to minimize differences due to mileage. The 2015 models were generally less than six months old at the time of the survey, with an average of about 3,000 miles.
So, they survey, is, "hey, in the past 12 months, what problems did you have?" They're going to include results of all the vehicles that not beyond the age they won't report or where there's insufficient data (under 100 responses for a model year of a vehicle). A guy with a 2012 will have a set of problems (or no problem) in his 1st 12 months and likely a different set of problems for each successive 12 month period.

When I had a Nissan 350Z, I recall certain systems that were known to have a problem trickling their way thru the rating year by year, making their way thru the system. I don't recall which system it was, but here's an example. Let's say power windows tend to fail at the 2 year mark (in fact both of mine did on my 04 and were replaced under warranty).

So, when 2003 models hit the 2 year mark, you'll see a black mark for body hardware for the 03, but the 04 will look ok for that same year. But, next year, 03 will probably look fine for body hardware but 04 will get hit by that, since they hit the 2 year mark. Then, you'd see it the same thing happen: 03 ok, 04 ok, 05 hit. If Nissan improved the part, you'd stop seeing this bubbling thru.

For perspective, here's a car w/an excellent reliability rating.
 

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No, it hasn't. Compare the drive unit rating on the '13 and '14 at Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average - Page 2 to the above. Very good turned into fair on the '13. Excellent turned into very good on '14.

So, the image I posted is the updated version of the earlier image posted. That being said, I don't see what you are referring to: engine (minor, major and cooling), transmission (major and minor) and fuel system are related excellent for 2012 to 2014 and drive system (whatever that might be) trends from good to very good to excellent over the same period. Are you referring to something else?
 
So, the image I posted is the updated version of the earlier image posted. That being said, I don't see what you are referring to: engine (minor, major and cooling), transmission (major and minor) and fuel system are related excellent for 2012 to 2014 and drive system (whatever that might be) trends from good to very good to excellent over the same period. Are you referring to something else?
Whoops. I made a typo.

I'm talking about drive system. Compare drive system on '13 to '13 on Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average - Page 2 vs. Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average - Page 5. Do they same for '14 drive system.
 
Frankly, I never put too much stock in CR's automotive reviews. That being said I do have quality concerns and these give me pause. If I was rich perhaps the ongoing quality issues wouldn't bother me as much. I buy the car and sell it or trade it in on another one. I wouldn't care too much about resale value dropping over quality issues. But I'm not rich.

What frustrates me is that many of these quality issues are ongoing after a really long time and after supposed engineering fixes were issued.

Examples?

Well the self-presenting door handles for one. I can certainly understand how a problem could crop up on the initial production run. These handles aren't rocket engines. There's no real excuse for this problem still cropping up on new vehicles. None whatsoever. It's either a fundamental design problem that could have been fixed or a supplier quality issue that should have been fixed. OR if it couldn't be fixed then they should have gotten rid of that feature and gone back to manual door handles. By the way, I am design engineer with many years of electro-mechanical design experience.

Likewise with the ongoing issues with motor drive units, contactors, etc.

Again - let me state that I totally understand teething pains with the initial vehicles. But sheesh, Tesla has had years and many thousands of vehicles to iron out these niggling little quality issues.

If it was up to me I wouldn't have spent a dime on Autopilot, Self-Driving stuff until ALL ongoing quality issues where truly solved.

I'm not bashing Tesla. I was hoping to buy a Tesla soon. But it scares me (and I was scared before CR dropped their recommendation) that I could spend a lot of my money on a car that after 4 years has lost it's resale value due to issues of quality. And yes...major kudos to Tesla service for going out of their way to fix vehicles under warranty.

Think of it this way. Look at the number of parts in a comparable ICE car vs the Tesla Model S. Look at ALL the parts in a V8 engine, 8 speed automatic trans, emission systems, exhaust system, cooling system. Look at all that complexity and yet somehow these ICE car companies maintain pretty good levels of quality. With the vast simplification of the Tesla design there should be very little to go wrong. But yet on certain fundamental, basic systems there seems to be a disconnect.

I really was hoping that by the time I was ready to buy all these quality issues would have been resolved. Sigh....

I don't care so much about those quality issues regarding visual appearance, or even squeaks and rattles that don't originate from the drive train.

Perhaps Tesla needs to step up and say look we will always cover any functional, drivability failure not caused by abuse. I don't know....

Issues can be fixed in parallel. If any good size company tried to serialize fixing issues/innovation/ramp up... they would be dead.
But your right, those little issues that presented from the get go should have been fixed by now.