Convincing a skeptic

[Barklikeadog]

Tesla does this because every fault or accident with the car is blown out of proportion by the media. They have to play defense or all news about the company would be negative. What other manufacturer gets a front page article about a single fatality car accident?

It's obvious you are biased and don't intend to drive the car anytime soon. What are you hoping to get from this thread? You aren't going to convince us that Tesla isn't a great company because most here own or have driven the car and have followed the them for years. We inherently have more information about the Tesla than you do. You can wait and see the inevitable transition from ICE to EV, or you can go drive a Tesla now and see why people love them.

I am not trying to blast Tesla. I believe I said that I consider Musk brilliant. I listed my concerns. I didn't say Tesla sucks or whatever people here are seeing. I never said it had to drive through a foot of snow. I'll always own a truck. I posted my observations. If you don't believe they are legit then please point out where they are flawed, no need for people to go on the attack. I see where people have posted here about insane service wait times, but I'm being told this is a lie. Their posts certainly look legit.
Maybe the problem is that love of the car gets in the way. If I wanted a love affair I'd buy a 59 impala. Is it possible to ask tough questions or take an opposite position and not start a flame war?

 

[CatB]

I think I said that I'm sure the drive is very nice. That was never a concern. You can't test drive reliability. I remember when consumer reports called Tesla the greatest car ever... but are now giving poor reviews on reliability and issuing dire warnings for potential customers of the model 3. That is what concerns me.

from consumer reports 1 year ago:
The real problem may be down the road, when Tesla migrates its technology from the $127,000 P85D down to the $35,000 Model 3, which it says will be launched in about two years. And there is also the concern about the cost to consumers once their Model S warranties expire.

It’s one thing to have a quirky, problematic car that sells 20,000 units per year to wealthy people who probably own at least one backup vehicle. It’s quite another when Tesla scales up to its 2020 projection of 200,000 U.S. Model 3 buyers, who may not have the luxury of being so forgiving.

I'm tracking with you on this actually. I was very concerned about service because my BMW was THE WORST!!! I bought CPO with the extended maintenance option and thank God I did. It was in the shop once a month for a year straight - fortunately on BMWNA's dime (they paid a ton to the dealers who performed the maintenance). I remember it started in June when the car was drinking oil. Then the AC went out, then something else, so it was in the shop for the majority of the month of June and it took a full year of "watching diagnosing and trying" before they "resolved" the problem. So, if you've had anything like that level of "service" I can see why you'd be concerned.

Tesla Motors is TOTALLY changing the equation though and Consumer Reports hasn't realized it. My car (Vin in the 70xx range) has had some issues, but they haven't charged me anything for those issues and they've used those early service records to improve the serviceability and reliability of the cars so quickly (hundreds of changes to vehicle, parts and manufacturing process EACH WEEK - compared to traditional care manufacturers who wait until the next model year to fix anything). This also means that when I go in for maintenance, they retroactively upgrade parts that are likely to fail in the future based on redesign. YMMV - there are the odd cars that have issues later, and although you'll see some complaints here, they generally get fixed - much faster and successfully than my BMW's issues!!

 

[Barklikeadog]

Done. Took a test drive. I'll post a pic later when I'm home.

 

[adiggs]

Excellent

I know I'm curious to see what you think of the whole thing.

 

[3Victoria]

The point wasn't that there have not been some bad experiences, but that we hear about them much more than all the good experiences. My impression is that the early problem are being solved and things are settling down.

 

[Joe Linzen]

I can not enough express my feelings about ppl like you. No clue but talking BS. I have plenty of let's say improvement ideas about Tesla and specific my MS....
But never driven one and talking like that. You're so full of it.
Same like the journalists that just try to get attention but pounding into minor issues.
Any of you should be ashamed.
Finally there is a guy that makes a change..... Respect that.
Not even wanting to go into details about your post. Can't fix ppl like you

 

[aesculus]

As does mine. Hydro is still the first, best and most reliable form of clean, renewable power generation. I guess technically it's solar powered, if you want to consider the water cycle.

Don't forget the salmon.

 

[esk8mw]

Here's why people buy Teslas from my experience with one (in no particular order):

- safest car on the road
- S is a sedan but has the storage/utility of an SUV
- handles amazing thanks to weight at the bottom of the car
- as above, handles great in the snow and has AWD. Better than SUVs in my opinion
- gobs of instant torque = fun to drive
- can be optioned to have supercar performance at a fraction of the price. Even the cheaper ones have incredible performance
- great tech, including huge touchscreen
- autopilot. this is the greatest feature i've used in any car ever and it will only improve from here. it is the best road tripping car I've ever experienced
- free long-distance travel
- much cheaper fueling costs while at home
- one pedal driving is great; less wear and tear on brakes
- subjective, but the vehicles look great
- cheaper than ICE to maintain, no oil changes
- excellent warranty, including 8 year/unlimited miles on battery
- best sales experience of any car i've owned
- far beyond the best service of any car i've owned
- over the air software updates are a game changer. my car is substantially better and has many new features since I bought it last December. Try that with your ICE.

I know I'm missing a ton of things here but that's what I had off the top of my head. Now, to dispel some of your concerns:

- the wait for service is an anomaly in a few regions. I'm in a major US city. The one issue I had (trunk wasn't closing consistently) was fixed in less than a day. I called in the evening, immediately dropped off the car (gave me a free Uber home) and it was ready the next morning (Tesla employee drove it back to my place upon my request, free of course). I was kept up to date on status every step of the way with a follow up call to make sure I was happy afterwards.
- The early model year reliability issues are WAY overblown. The cars have improved drastically, as with any manufacturer. First year cars always have issues, from every mfg. In the event there is an issue, they bend over backwards to resolve the problem and make you happy. You mention CR. Despite the low reliability rating based on early models, they had a 98% satisfaction rating (highest). This is the only metric that matters.
- You don't need 500 miles range. You sound like me prior to my test drive. You wake up each day with a "full tank." You very rarely drive more than 250 miles in a day. When you do, there are superchargers strategically placed pretty much anywhere you'd want to go. Usage is free and unlimited.
- They do not pollute even close to the same level as ICE cars where the electricity generation is taken into account. In any event, cleaner energy is probably available to you, including solar, if this is a concern.
- They handle amazing in the snow and cold. Norway is one of Tesla's biggest markets. I hear they get some snow now and again.
- AP is not dangerous or a concern if you use it as directed. In fact, it takes the stress out of driving and makes it much safer.

 

[Canuck]

I'll always own a truck.

There's nothing wrong with that. I own a Tahoe hybrid. I do need to tow my boat and I don't have awd since I bought my Tesla before it was available and I need 4WD to get up and down my cabin driveway in snow too (I miss AWD more than AP!). I just can't justify the price of a Model X to replace the Tahoe, since I don't drive it very much. You will find if you do buy a Tesla you will avoid driving an ICE, and especially a truck, much more than you ever thought. I thought I would need my Tahoe to do renovation projects at my lakehouse but it's amazing how much you can fit into a Model S, especially my old large frunk classic one. Screen doors, tons of rolled sod, you name it, I've packed it in, rather than drive my ICE to the lake.

 

[adiggs]

Heh - I've been surprised at what all I can pack into my Roadster That dynamic of figuring out how to make the wrong vehicle work anyway is alive and well for me and the Roadster. Heck - I can get 6 full bags of groceries without too much difficulty, and I think I could swing 8 or 10 if I really had to.

 

[LastGas]

I live in the South and one might think that folks here would have a preference for American cars. I watched today. Toyota, Toyota, Honda, Toyota, Kia, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, BMW, Hyundai... OK, there was a sprinkling of American cars, and BMW has an American plant 10 miles from here and those other companies have US manufacturing too. My Prius was made in Japan, and I would like to support a US car company, Tesla.

 

[djplong]

Hello, I've been hanging around the Tesla forums for a few years now. I'm pretty much a skeptic, it seems for every positive of owning a Tesla, there are several negatives. That is just my personal view, I'm not here to attack you. Every car company has plenty of negatives. I prefer to buy battery powered items over ICE despite their limitations, but a large item like an auto is in a different category. I don't see battery powered autos as the future, just the next step. I'm also not on some agenda to save the earth. Less pollution is great, but I'm not going to make significant sacrifices for it. At least not while people like Dicaprio are flying around the world 200 times in a private jet and lecturing us peons about what we are doing wrong...

Not having read all 5 pages of replies, I'll throw in my 2 cents...

1. Elon Musk: I know you look at him like a God... and he is a brilliant guy. But too often he seems to promise the moon(or mars) when more of his attention could be put towards quality, service, making deadlines. People want an affordable car and they get unnecessary Xwing doors.
Q: Will he address issues that bother customers or will he keep chasing down the next big thing?

According to Musk's own statements at a recent event, he's admitted that the Model X's delays were due to their own hubris and this would NOT be repeated with the Model 3. I'd like to believe that he's learned form his mistakes since he made such a public admission.

2. Service: I can't help but be shocked at how long some of you wait in line for service on $100,000 cars.. weeks, months... that is just unacceptable. And they plan to put hundreds of thousands more autos on the road... at this point it doesn't seem like you can build service centers fast enough.
Q: How can this possibly be resolved when Tesla owners multiply?

I don't mean to sound snide, honestly - but people who have been following closely for a period of time have seen the remarks about just how much they're going to expand the delaer and service network. Now, some of that might be difficult because of state franchising laws, but the number of service centers is slated to increase by 400%, if I remember correctly.

3. I never buy a 1st gen car of any kind, they are always full of problems. Traditional automakers seem to work those out for the 2nd year of production.
Q: Are these problems lasting over several model years? Is that information even available?

Most of what I've read indicates that Teslas get better incrementally, constantly. They don't wait for "another model year" to put in all the engineering improvements - they put them in as they design and test them. Now, in theory, this COULD cause a problem with "Oh, your Tesla is from June 2017 and we have the part for the July model but not June so we'll have to order it" but I haven't heard of that happening - yet.

4. I own a jeep, a supercrew pickup, and a BMW 3series. I have been towed one time in 25 years because of an alternator going out. It was replaced within 24 hours. I see so many posts here about cars being taken to service centers, sitting for weeks. I plan to replace the BMW in the next few years, Tesla is an option.
Q: I want 1st class service with minimal wait time, my dealers have always taken good care of me, how many years out am I from getting this with Tesla?

This will largely depend on the success of Tesla blowing out the service network. I have a 2002 Camry with 275,000 miles on it that I'm hoping holds on (it purrs like a kitten) until my Model 3 is ready.

5. I'm not going to argue the autopilot/summon issue. I see it from both sides. People will misuse it. The media will jump all over it. On the other hand software can error as well. A sensor that cannot see above the front bumper or detect bicycles is troubling. I see Tesla drivers on videos for unveiling cars where they set autopilot and take their hands off the wheel, I read about test drives where the salesman does the same. But my question is abit unique...
Q: I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but when a driver is an accident and Tesla releases to the public what the driver was doing every second... I don't like it, I don't want it. I do not want updates without my approval or my private actions tracked or put out there for all to see. Can you opt out of this??

So far, the stories I've seen have only seen that happen when the driver in an accident has tried to blame Tesla.

6. Auto companies are known to ignore problems or fudge numbers. When the autopilot death occurred, Tesla kept throwing out the death per whatever million miles statistic. That is incredibly flawed. You cannot compare a $100,000 car with an avg middle aged driver to the driving safety of an entire population which includes drunk drivers, teenagers, etc. This is the type of thing that a traditional auto company would say to cover up a problem. Isn't this what happened with the guy who accidentally summoned his car, then Tesla said it wasn't their fault, but updated the software anyway? I may be wrong but those things just seemed sketchy to me.
Q: How is Tesla any different than traditional auto makers who far too often deny potentially costly problems, specially when they have more to lose?

Take the example of the first battery fire. Guy runs over debris that had fallen from a truck, puncturing the battery pack. The car warns him that there's a problem. He pulls over. Some time later, the car DOES catch fire, long after the driver has walked away. Tesla looks at what happened. They respond not by denying thing - but by engineering a new titanium shield that they not only put on every subsequent car, but install it FOR FREE on every existing Model S on the road. While they're engineering that, they send out a software update that raises the air-filled suspension (which lowers at high speeds for efficiency) to temporarily lower the risk of that event happening again.

 

[Chopr147]

I LOVE that Tesla is an American car company. It's been decades since we could say an American car is the best car made.
And yes the S has plenty of storage space. So Barklikeadog, you took a test drive? Have you ordered one yet?
I was waiting for the Model 3 and in June decided to take a test drive. A week later i was ordering my S It really is the best car I have ever had. Soon you will be posting a "Just ordered" thread

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I ordered a new one today! Got a loaded Pearl White 90D with Tan Leather for the wife today.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Excellent

I know I'm curious to see what you think of the whole thing.

It was a good experience. I enjoyed it.

First impression
Impressive car, cool design, the first thing that catches your attention are the door handles sliding out.
Crazy amount of storage.
Hipster staff was great for not having an appointment
adjustable cup holders, great idea
touchscreen is larger than expected
amusing that the only thing under the hood was the windshield washer fill. 100 years from now future cars will still have that I'm sure.

test drive
smooth ride, handles well, plenty of power
definite learning curve with regen braking. ease off the pedal and errrrrrrrrrrrrr slowing down...and again...and again.
Not sure how I feel about that.
switched from 60 to 90 during drive, unexpected flexibility for a car to test drive all 3 levels
while parking front sensor notifies curb 18 inches away. nice

positives
car is very impressive all around, about what I would expect at that price point
test drive was good
storage great
salespeople knew their stuff
frame of car in showroom is a nice showpiece
touchscreen and similar features are unique and well done

negatives
I asked about service, was told it was about 2 weeks. When I did my loop around the lot on the way in and out I counted about
40 Teslas with owner plates. loaners are provided, but don't expect another Tesla, most people get other brands or rentals.

I asked about price and was shown the website, I wish I could see the different levels, features, prices side by side in person.

I actually don't like all controls being on the screen. I'd rather have climate manual. Too cold? click. Too hot? click. done. Couldn't find it on the screen to turn the air down.... oh ther eit is at the bottom... select controls, try and move slider while driving... Other automakers seem to make this more complex as well. Don't like it.

I look at the door handles like I see retractable running boards on trucks... after you get past the 'wow'... it's jsut another thing that is bound to malfunction or break. Don't complicate something simple.


Other observations

excellent car

twice what I want to spend for a 3rd car to run around in

Sat in a model X, looked at the nonstop windshield, got out. Hated that immediately. Not a fan of sunroofs in general.

I didn't fall in love with the car like so many here, but came away impressed.

 

[EVie'sDad]

Glad you took the test drive. Don't agree with everything, especially slowing during regen, which i love "one foot driving.".

I too disliked the model x, but love my sedan. To each their own.

Hope if you're able to justify it that you take the plunge. I assure you that you will not regret it.

 

[Canuck]

definite learning curve with regen braking. ease off the pedal and errrrrrrrrrrrrr slowing down...and again...and again.
Not sure how I feel about that.

Give it time and you'll wonder why you questioned it. There's nothing better that one foot driving, especially on the highway. When you get back in an ICE, and have to hit the brakes on a curve on a highway, you'll understand. Just driving around the city you'll understand. The only frustrating thing is that the brake lights come on far too easily. I drive a windy highway for over two hours to my cabin, up and down two mountain passes, without touching the brakes once, but if you were behind me and didn't understand Tesla and regenerative braking (since no other EV is the same when it comes to Tesla's strong regen) you'd think I was riding the brakes, and that bothers me.

 

[Phil Seastrand]

I asked about service, was told it was about 2 weeks. When I did my loop around the lot on the way in and out I counted about
40 Teslas with owner plates. loaners are provided, but don't expect another Tesla, most people get other brands or rentals.

My experience with service was very different. I've gotten in the next day when I needed it in a hurry and it's been one week when I wasn't in a hurry. I've always received a Tesla loaner, and it's been a higher priced car than what I dropped off most of the time.

 

[Canuck]

My experience with service was very different. I've gotten in the next day when I needed it in a hurry and it's been one week when I wasn't in a hurry. I've always received a Tesla loaner, and it's been a higher priced car than what I dropped off most of the time.

Me too but it's location dependent. Depending your location, your service center may be overloaded. Tesla has to build more, or expand existing ones, in certain locations, but others are fine.

 

[22522]

It was a good experience. I enjoyed it.

First impression
Impressive car, cool design, the first thing that catches your attention are the door handles sliding out.
Crazy amount of storage.
Hipster staff was great for not having an appointment
adjustable cup holders, great idea
touchscreen is larger than expected
amusing that the only thing under the hood was the windshield washer fill. 100 years from now future cars will still have that I'm sure.

test drive
smooth ride, handles well, plenty of power
definite learning curve with regen braking. ease off the pedal and errrrrrrrrrrrrr slowing down...and again...and again.
Not sure how I feel about that.
switched from 60 to 90 during drive, unexpected flexibility for a car to test drive all 3 levels
while parking front sensor notifies curb 18 inches away. nice

positives
car is very impressive all around, about what I would expect at that price point
test drive was good
storage great
salespeople knew their stuff
frame of car in showroom is a nice showpiece
touchscreen and similar features are unique and well done

negatives
I asked about service, was told it was about 2 weeks. When I did my loop around the lot on the way in and out I counted about
40 Teslas with owner plates. loaners are provided, but don't expect another Tesla, most people get other brands or rentals.

I asked about price and was shown the website, I wish I could see the different levels, features, prices side by side in person.

I actually don't like all controls being on the screen. I'd rather have climate manual. Too cold? click. Too hot? click. done. Couldn't find it on the screen to turn the air down.... oh ther eit is at the bottom... select controls, try and move slider while driving... Other automakers seem to make this more complex as well. Don't like it.

I look at the door handles like I see retractable running boards on trucks... after you get past the 'wow'... it's jsut another thing that is bound to malfunction or break. Don't complicate something simple.


Other observations

excellent car

twice what I want to spend for a 3rd car to run around in

Sat in a model X, looked at the nonstop windshield, got out. Hated that immediately. Not a fan of sunroofs in general.

I didn't fall in love with the car like so many here, but came away impressed.

Thanks for the write up. I think it says you will like the Model 3 for the limited use model required by a household with 3 vehicles.

But if you crash it, and try to sue them, they will have data. Saw some pretty narrow definitions on what data they will not keep, above.