Coronavirus

[JRP3]

If anything, this would show you HOW BAD government-run healthcare would be. If they cannot manage a vaccine roll-out, do you really want them handling something more complex?

And no, the rich are not getting the vaccine sooner

They would be if private for profit businesses were running it. That's how the "free market" works.

 

[shinytop]

Here in NW Florida many have been vaccinated. The program was on line reservation if you are in the healthcare field and 2nd priority is 65 and older. The sites are still running. Have not heard about any shutting down. Although I don't doubt Pfizer is in state all the vaccinated I know got Moderna including me.

The only problem I have heard of is snow birds. Those that live in the North in the summer and Florida in the winter. If a person's drivers license is out of state they have to show proof of a lease or other proof of residency such as power or water bill in their name. If they cannot prove residency they are turned away. Some snuck thru early on and will receive their second dose. So we are vaccinating more than just our own population.

 

[bkp_duke]

They would be if private for profit businesses were running it. That's how the "free market" works.

I always find it HIGHLY IRONIC, especially on this forum, that when it comes to healthcare people want socialism. Calling a spade a spade there.

But when it comes to Energy/Autos/etc. everyone here has unshakable faith that Elon Musk and Tesla can bring BETTER EFFICIENCY to those markets, drive down pricing, produce a better product . . . basically entrepreneurism as it should be. Out-competing traditional players, and in the process making a lot of people here a lot of money, and improving their lives.

Someone, please, show me a market that the US Gov entered that then became more efficient for it.

There is nothing wrong with for-profit. It is the search for profit that makes companies compete against each other and become more efficient at providing services. If it wasn't for profit, we would all think rotary phones were still amazing, and the concept of a cell phone would be laughable, forget smart phones.

The current US healthcare system is broken BECAUSE the US Gov has allowed regional players to carve out monopolies, and not enforced competition. If the US Gov takes over all healthcare, then things will only get worse because you WILL see the pace of innovation drop, as companies take note that prices are fixed arbitrarily, not by the market, and there is no reason to push forward with innovation. Do you think companies like Moderna would have taken ideas like mRNA technology and perfected it for vaccine use? Nope.

And before someone comes in and says "but country X has socialized medicine and it is great" - go dig into patient reports from those countries. Care is rationed out, and not available on demand. That's just a fact. Furthermore, those countries only are able to provide "quality care" because of the innovations spear-headed in this country.



Back to COVID-19 vaccines - there would NOT be 95% effective vaccines available 9-10 months after the beginning of a pandemic without private enterprise. Moderna and even Pfizer would not exist, and would not have had motivation to do the research to bring these things to market.

 

[bkp_duke]

/rant on
If only there had been a Federal Government workbook, playbook, say, ===>> made 10-15 years ago<<=== starting with Bush and Obama administrations that detailed in great detail how to respond to _pandemics_.

If the competent folks had been allowed to work not in fear of their jobs, the _govenment_ run programs might have worked a lot better and not gutted so they could be run like a "business" by "business people"

The just removed administration totally abdicated any attempts to control the pandemic and lied about the severity in a misguided effort to keep the economy robust, or at least the stock market. It can reasonably be argued that once they were convinced they lost the election they actively and with malice aforethought made sure the vaccine rollout would be chaotic.

SAY like perhaps the linked one below detailing extensively how to deal with pandemics after SARS, Ebola, H1N1, Zika

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6819268/Pandemic-Playbook.pdf

/rant off

I appreciate this opinion, and see the merits of some of the argument, but you are completely glossing over the following:

1) In the HISTORY of mankind, we have NEVER been able to contain an airborne, pandemic-level pathogen. Ever. The "playbook" referred to has nothing new that would have prevented that.

2) The above would have mitigated this ONLY if we wanted to COMPLETELY close off and enforce the closure of our borders. Is that something you were willing to do? Even with this, given the size of our borders (we are not a New Zealand - where this has worked), I doubt we could have managed it.


The R-value for this pathogen (which is HIGHER now than it was at the beginning because of the new mutations) means that it is virtually impossible to contain. You would ONLY be able to slow the spread, and there I 100% agree we could and should have done a better job.

Bear in mind that 1 in 6 infections in the US are of Healthcare providers and their families. These are the people that KNOW how to use PPE properly, and this data is a STRONG indication that PPE measures are insufficient alone to stop the spread of this virus.

 

[MXLRplus]

...It can reasonably be argued that once they were convinced they lost the election they actively and with malice aforethought made sure the vaccine rollout would be chaotic. ...

Oh brother.
BTW - People are flying to Florida to get the vaccine, yet California is dead last in distribution. (unless you are rich, an actor, or an elected official)

 

[bkp_duke]

the purpose of a business is to make a profit for the owners etc of the business
the purpose of a government is the betterment of _all_ of it's citizens, no matter their status to put it simply
when you mix the two, you get the CF of the last 4 years at a minimum

That is an extremely myopic viewpoint that doesn't fit with the data, despite how much you may hate the previous administration.

Vaccine, medical technology companies, and pharma companies all have show that they can both improve lives of ALL citizens of a country, and still make money. In fact, I will say that lives were SAVED because of for-profit companies like Moderna and Pfizer compared to if government was running everything. Vaccine release and start of administration would be YEARS later than it was (not months).

The companies will profit from that, and literally lives will be saved.

EDIT - sure, there are examples of the Epi-Pen guy that tried to price gouge everyone, but THAT example further emphasizes my point. The US Gov failed in that case and allowed ONE company to buy up all the rights to a drug, creating a monopoly. That was a failure that would have never happened if competition existed.

The purpose of Gov is to ENSURE COMPETITION, NOT TO TAKE OVER MARKETS.

Markets will always be faster and more efficient than government (SpaceX vs. NASA is yet another example).

 

[bkp_duke]

Oh brother.
BTW - People are flying to Florida to get the vaccine, yet California is dead last in distribution. (unless you are rich, an actor, or an elected official)

Yeah, as a physician, California's roll-out has been an example of how NOT to do things. Literally, they are sitting on millions of doses sitting in storage and have not been administered.

 

[jerry33]

Bear in mind that 1 in 6 infections in the US are of Healthcare providers and their families. These are the people that KNOW how to use PPE properly, and this data is a STRONG indication that PPE measures are insufficient alone to stop the spread of this virus.

At least in very infective conditions.

 

[MXLRplus]

the purpose of a business is to make a profit for the owners etc of the business
the purpose of a government is the betterment of _all_ of it's citizens, no matter their status to put it simply
when you mix the two, you get the CF of the last 4 years at a minimum

The purpose of my state government (the fed has little effect here) is to make us suffer for the crime of paying taxes. They are doing a great job. I enjoy my work and helping others, so I started my own business almost 30 years ago. If I wanted to get rich, I'd have picked a different occupation.

 

[JRP3]

I always find it HIGHLY IRONIC, especially on this forum, that when it comes to healthcare people want socialism. Calling a spade a spade there.

Markets will always be faster and more efficient than government

Other countries with more socialized medicine prove that to be false. Our system is a disaster unless you are wealthy.

 

[bkp_duke]

Other countries with more socialized medicine prove that to be false. Our system is a disaster unless you are wealthy.

NO NO NO.

Because the VAST majority of medical advancements and research is performed in THIS COUNTRY, those countries benefit directly from those advancements without contributing to them and basically are barnacles feeding off our innovation.

Once you remove the innovation in the USA, which will happen with a 100% government run system without market forces, you will see innovation and medical advancements grind to a halt.


I just don't understand how everyone here, YOU included as a TSLA investor, believe so strongly in an entrepreneur like Elon and the efficiencies someone like him through disruptive innovation can bring to the market. I want the SAME for the Healthcare market. Do you think the US Gov would have built an EV, ever? And if they did, would it be remotely as good as a Tesla?

Did you not read my experience at the San Diego Health Department regarding vaccines just 3 weeks ago? It was a @#$% show, run completely by the government. Meanwhile, the PRIVATE sponsored system provided by UC San Diego Healthcare (a private entity) has been vaccinating ~5000 people daily at one site (they do partner with the gov to get the vaccine, but that is it, the rest is privately run).

 

[jerry33]

NO NO NO.

Because the VAST majority of medical advancements and research is performed in THIS COUNTRY, those countries benefit directly from those advancements without contributing to them and basically are barnacles feeding off our innovation.

Isn't there two different topics here? Innovation and service. It's the service part that the U.S. is poor at. No one should file bankruptcy because of health issues. No one should have to choose between food and insulin. These are service issues, not innovation issues. My opinion (FWIW) is that it's the insurance companies that are the villain. To increase profits, they hike prices and deny coverage. This is where government can help.

 

[Yuri_G]

NO NO NO.

Because the VAST majority of medical advancements and research is performed in THIS COUNTRY, those countries benefit directly from those advancements without contributing to them and basically are barnacles feeding off our innovation.

Once you remove the innovation in the USA, which will happen with a 100% government run system without market forces, you will see innovation and medical advancements grind to a halt.


I just don't understand how everyone here, YOU included as a TSLA investor, believe so strongly in an entrepreneur like Elon and the efficiencies someone like him through disruptive innovation can bring to the market. I want the SAME for the Healthcare market. Do you think the US Gov would have built an EV, ever? And if they did, would it be remotely as good as a Tesla?

Did you not read my experience at the San Diego Health Department regarding vaccines just 3 weeks ago? It was a @#$% show, run completely by the government. Meanwhile, the PRIVATE sponsored system provided by UC San Diego Healthcare (a private entity) has been vaccinating ~5000 people daily at one site (they do partner with the gov to get the vaccine, but that is it, the rest is privately run).

Yet the vaccine is being federally distributed. As you posted today Israel has the most inoculated population by far, and they are a state run healthcare system. Private healthcare has been a major failure in this country because the poor pay the most on all fronts.

 

[bkp_duke]

Yet the vaccine is being federally distributed. As you posted today Israel has the most inoculated population by far, and they are a state run healthcare system. Private healthcare has been a major failure in this country because the poor pay the most on all fronts.

You are incorrect on a VERY key point. DISTRIBUTION is NOT Federally run. The US Gov is ONLY shipping vaccine to the states. Each STATE then determines its own distribution plan.

Some states (West Virginia, Alaska) are doing GREAT.

Other states, like California, are a *sugar* show.

If private systems were distributing this, they would run it like Amazon and it would run far FAR better.

 

[bkp_duke]

Isn't there two different topics here? Innovation and service. It's the service part that the U.S. is poor at. No one should file bankruptcy because of health issues. No one should have to choose between food and insulin. These are service issues, not innovation issues. My opinion (FWIW) is that it's the insurance companies that are the villain. To increase profits, they hike prices and deny coverage. This is where government can help.

I'm in complete agreement with this. The current system is a *sugar* show, but I disagree greatly about how it should be fixed. The current system has a ton of microcosms which allow small to medium sized health companies to carve out regional monopolies and have no competition within their area of service. This used to NOT be the case.

I would be 100% in favor of the US Gov entering the system as an insurer to COMPETE with everyone else, as long as at the same time these local monopolies were destroyed. Competition will lower prices and improve service.

Going to a 100% gov run system would be moving things even worse. Gov corruption in this country is insane (ahem, Newsom and others telling the public how to be in the pandemic - but the rules do NOT apply to them). It would only be worse if Gov was the only provider there is. How is that the rest here don't see this? Don't look to other countries for solutions, they don't have the same level of gov corruption we have here - their solutions (and they are far from perfect), will not work here.

 

[JRP3]

they don't have the same level of gov corruption we have here

Then guess what needs to be fixed?

 

[bkp_duke]

Then guess what needs to be fixed?

You must still believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, right?

Yep, call me jaded.


I view an open market as a nice check to a corrupt government, but I'm sensing that I'm in the minority here . . .

 

[madodel]

I always find it HIGHLY IRONIC, especially on this forum, that when it comes to healthcare people want socialism. Calling a spade a spade there.

But when it comes to Energy/Autos/etc. everyone here has unshakable faith that Elon Musk and Tesla can bring BETTER EFFICIENCY to those markets, drive down pricing, produce a better product . . . basically entrepreneurism as it should be. Out-competing traditional players, and in the process making a lot of people here a lot of money, and improving their lives.

Someone, please, show me a market that the US Gov entered that then became more efficient for it.

There is nothing wrong with for-profit. It is the search for profit that makes companies compete against each other and become more efficient at providing services. If it wasn't for profit, we would all think rotary phones were still amazing, and the concept of a cell phone would be laughable, forget smart phones.

The current US healthcare system is broken BECAUSE the US Gov has allowed regional players to carve out monopolies, and not enforced competition. If the US Gov takes over all healthcare, then things will only get worse because you WILL see the pace of innovation drop, as companies take note that prices are fixed arbitrarily, not by the market, and there is no reason to push forward with innovation. Do you think companies like Moderna would have taken ideas like mRNA technology and perfected it for vaccine use? Nope.

And before someone comes in and says "but country X has socialized medicine and it is great" - go dig into patient reports from those countries. Care is rationed out, and not available on demand. That's just a fact. Furthermore, those countries only are able to provide "quality care" because of the innovations spear-headed in this country.



Back to COVID-19 vaccines - there would NOT be 95% effective vaccines available 9-10 months after the beginning of a pandemic without private enterprise. Moderna and even Pfizer would not exist, and would not have had motivation to do the research to bring these things to market.

Medicare.

 

[jerry33]

I'm in complete agreement with this. The current system is a *sugar* show, but I disagree greatly about how it should be fixed. The current system has a ton of microcosms which allow small to medium sized health companies to carve out regional monopolies and have no competition within their area of service. This used to NOT be the case.

I would be 100% in favor of the US Gov entering the system as an insurer to COMPETE with everyone else, as long as at the same time these local monopolies were destroyed. Competition will lower prices and improve service.

In agreement as long as the government isn't hamstrung the way it is now by not be able to have competitive bids. Having competitive bids is what the industry is scared of as it would kill their profits.

 

[JRP3]

I view an open market as a nice check to a corrupt government

And how has that worked out? As if the market and businesses aren't ever corrupt...