Coronavirus

[bkp_duke]

So assuming we have a future with drug companies watching natural virus evolution and trying to rush to market the latest new MRNA vaccines to slow/stop the spread, it makes me ponder the idea of going to the "source" to limit the virus evolution.
For instance, should we (eventually) make MNRA vaccines for animals like bats and pangolins and send teams into nature to inoculate them in the hope that we could someday wipe out whole classes of viruses instead of eternally trying to slow them once they jump to humans?
We hope to inoculate the whole human race in record time... What about other life forms that can spread and mutate the viruses? Does this idea seem absurd?

It's not practical to do anything but catalog these viruses in other animals (and that sounds easy, but is REALLY hard - because the animals are "natural reservoirs" and don't get sick from these viruses usually). What you propose would be more costly than what we are currently going through.

 

[Norbert]

There are also some people who believe that even if climate change leads to the extinction of the human race, then so be it. Supposedly we should not do anything to interfere with the 'natural' path of events....

That makes as much sense. An absurd form of fatalism which is absurd in the first place.

 

[TEG]

It's not practical to do anything but catalog these viruses in other animals (and that sounds easy, but is REALLY hard - because the animals are "natural reservoirs" and don't get sick from these viruses usually). What you propose would be more costly than what we are currently going through.

Maybe someday... The other ethical question is if we are accelerating down a road to global "overpopulation" (whatever that is) based on life extension and death avoidance. I guess the Elon answer is we will just start moving to another planet once we figure this one can't handle us anymore. I am maybe more pessimistic about the viability of that plan... It is a really tough call to balance "save everyone at all costs", vs "let nature flare up and keep human population in check."

Hopefully science comes up with better solutions for basic needs (water processing, mass housing, etc.) assuming we keep getting better at keeping people alive longer. Coming out of 2020, we are in a "nature is ahead of science" in that regard, but hopefully we are turning that corner and starting a new era of taking charge of this stuff (to be better prepared to shut down the next virus pandemic that shows up.)

Has anyone been looking at charts of average life expectancy around the globe taking into account 2020 data? Given the tendency for COVID to affect older people much more, maybe it hasn't had that much of an effect.

 

[Johan]

Hopefully science comes up with better solutions for basic needs (water processing, mass housing, etc.) assuming we keep getting better at keeping people alive longer. Coming out of 2020, we are in a "nature is ahead of science" in that regard, but hopefully we are turning that corner and starting a new era of taking charge of this stuff.

That's pretty unethical. Why not also let people die from cancer, heart attacks etc? After all, a life saved is in reality just a death delayed, or one cause of death switched for another...

 

[TEG]

Yeah, 99%+ of us are focused on letting everyone live as long as possible. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss the future trajectory of all that. It does suggest we need to keep focused on how to make the planet able to sustain a lot more people. Or find ways to have future populations live somewhere else. I assume there is some limit to the population density the planet can support many many many generations in the future.

Anyways, I am dragging this off topic (sorry) so will stop talking about population explosion as a topic here.

(Well I suppose it is loosely related in that a new virus has an easier time spreading around the globe the more interconnected people there are to infect... )

 

[TEG]

It's not practical to do anything but catalog these viruses in other animals (and that sounds easy, but is REALLY hard - because the animals are "natural reservoirs" and don't get sick from these viruses usually). What you propose would be more costly than what we are currently going through.

(More costly in terms of dollars rather than lives saved I guess...)

We do want to keep the best idea as the goal. In the long run it might be good to try to expand things to target the source of these viruses instead of just "treating the symptoms" by vaccinating humans only. Is there an ethical issue with us vaccinating wild animals? Some shareholders of drug companies might actually prefer if the viruses just keep coming and coming once MRNA vaccines turn into something long term profitable. So need to make sure we look at this as a life optimization, not a profit center business model decision...

Hmm, I guess this thread is in the Investor area, so maybe the wrong place to discuss this with a neutral audience.

Out of curiosity, I Googled Pfizer's mission statement...

Looks like COVID hasn't really helped their stock price...

I guess they are so big and diverse (within their industry) that this doesn't affect them so directly.

Moderna, on the other hand, is more directly tied to this and has taken off:

 

[RobStark]

 

[TEG]

The secrets to Israel’s coronavirus vaccination success

...
Reasons behind this roaring start are fast emerging: Netanyahu revealed on January 7 that Israel struck an agreement with Pfizer to exchange citizens' data for 10 million doses of the coronavirus vaccine, including a promise of shipments of 400,000-700,000 doses every week.
Under this agreement, Israel will provide details to Pfizer (as well as and the World Health Organization) about the age, gender and medical history of those receiving the jab as well as its side effects and efficacy. No identifying information will be given in order to maintain some privacy....

..."We convinced them that if they give their vaccine to us first, we will know exactly how to administer it in the shortest time possible — and this is precisely what happened," Israeli Health Minister Yuli Edelstein told POLITICO via his spokesperson. "We were prepared early, signed the agreements early, and told pharmaceuticals they would see results early. It's a win-win situation."...

Israel's Covid vaccine rollout is the fastest in the world — here are some lessons for the rest of us

The secret sauce behind Israel’s successful COVID-19 vaccination program

Why have the COVID-19 vaccinations in Israel made the headlines?

One Country Has Jumped Ahead on Vaccinations

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...b20882-4e73-11eb-a1f5-fdaf28cfca90_story.html

Covid-19: Reports from Israel suggest one dose of Pfizer vaccine could be less effective than expected

 

[wdolson]

Most of those "young deaths" had little to nothing to do with their genetic fitness.

This is a eugenics argument, and as a die-hard Star Trek fan, I don't like where eugenics arguments go in general.

A) I was not addressing outcomes from COVID specifically.
B) I was pointing out one of the downsides of modern medicine. Simply pointing out that there is a problem is not eugenics. Eugenics is proposing solutions. I can't think of any solutions we can do about it that aren't horrific. Same issue with overpopulation.
C) I have probably seen every episode of Star Trek ever produced and all but the last of the Tellytubby Star Trek movies (the recent reboot). I've seen every episode of the original series probably 20+ times and read reams of science fiction. I think about unintended consequences all the time, both in my own life as well as what we are doing as a society. The intractable problems with no real solution short of something horrific are the Kobiyashi Maru scenarios we as a society are ignoring.

Exactly...

No... I don't think my doctor would order that for me, and it would be hospital blood test. Thinking it is not worth it to ask because:
#1: Going to hospital for a blood test is COVID risk if I didn't really have it.
#2: I am under quarantine now anyways, so can't go anywhere for a while.
#3: Hospitals are super busy so don't need a healthy person using their resources to satisfy their curiosity.

I would really like to know if I have antibodies since my wife thinks I must have brought it home asymptomatically as she can't figure out any other possible exposure vector.
Could I have caught it in my gut from something I ate? (I did occasionally order some curbside pick-up lunch when heading over to the pharmacy. Only possible symptoms I can recall was a day of indigestion...)

I guess when I finally get the vaccine if I have a very strong reaction to the first dose, then I would be able to guess I probably already had it.

I did two antibody blood tests. The first was in a medical office building, but the second was in a small office separate from other medical offices. I had to make an appointment and I was the only person other than the phlebotomist in the building. I was in and out in less than 5 minutes. The first blood draw took about 10 minutes.

The second one was by LabCorp and cost $5. They didn't require a doctor's order.
Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Antibody Test for Providers | LabCorp

I think I probably had it last February. I lost my sense of smell and taste for a few days with clear sinuses and had about 2 weeks of what I thought was an odd asthma attack (it felt a bit different). My partner got sick with similar symptoms for a few days after I got over it (though she doesn't recall losing her sense of smell, but hers isn't as sharp as mine to begin with). By the time any antibody tests were available it had been 4 months and the active antibodies had probably faded too much. If I did have it, but I have not been able to find any other disease or condition that can result in a short term loss of smell with clear sinuses. There are some neurological conditions and of course things like head colds can cause loss of smell (I've had it happen), but I've never lost my sense of smell when I wasn't congested.

 

[TEG]

Only $5... what a deal ! I wonder if it would be possible to combine a visit for an antigen test and a vaccine shot at the same time? Would that seem odd to them, like "why does it even matter now that you are getting vaccine..."
( I am not eligible for vaccine yet, but just thinking about that "what if" scenario. )

 

[wdolson]

Only $5... what a deal ! I wonder if it would be possible to combine a visit for an antigen test and a vaccine shot at the same time? Would that seem odd to them, like "why does it even matter now that you are getting vaccine..."
( I am not eligible for vaccine yet, but just thinking about that "what if" scenario. )

The fee may have changed, but it was $5 when I did it.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Girlfriend got first shot today, teacher. Sister, another teacher, is scheduled for tomorrow. Mother 75+ is scheduled for I think Saturday.

Rollout in PA has been an absolute mess. Supply just sitting around while idiots deal with the red tape. I have a feeling the wealthy are finding their way thru it real quick.

Anywho.....apparently we're accelerating just this week. Girlfriend's shooter today was telling her fellow vaccinator that she'd been trying to volunteer to vaccinate for WEEKS and just got a call yesterday to work today. Splendid.

It's almost like fee-for-service healthcare is horribly inefficient.

 

[TEG]

...I have a feeling the wealthy are finding their way thru it real quick...

Yup...
Former CEO of Great Canadian Gaming, actress charged after flying to Beaver Creek for COVID-19 vaccine - Yukon News

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Plenty of rich communities in Florida reporting 20-40% vaccination rates already.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

New data show treatment with Lilly's neutralizing antibodies bamlanivimab (LY-CoV555) and etesevimab (LY-CoV016) together reduced risk of COVID-19 hospitalizations and death by 70 percent | Eli Lilly and Company

Monoclonals (when used as indicated) reduce deaths by 70%. This is a clinical trial result. As I recall early treatment is key. That’s pretty good! Looks like Trump has reason to be thankful.

We’ll see if these results hold with the new variants.

 

[TEG]

I think my wife may have been a beneficiary of that success as well !

( Nurse referred to it as "the good stuff..." )

 

[winfield100]

OT (somewhat)
Since folks are or seem to have been in dark moods discussing the end of the human race
"James Tiptree, Jr" aka Racoona Sheldon, deceased Science fiction author
"Last Flight of Dr Ain" (every human gets to a 100% fatal, 100% communicable deliberately bioengineered virus)

lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/last-flight-doctor-ain/

or

"The Screwfly solution"
where a brain virus causes males to commit "femicide" (kill all the females)
(story and movie)(aliens want a nice planet with mostly built infrastructure)
The Screwfly Solution (Masters of Horror) - Wikipedia
(a riff on North America, smallpox pandemics)

 

[madodel]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/27/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

Both AstraZeneca and Pfizer-BioNTech report manufacturing problems slowing down vaccine production. Good news is Sanofi has said it will produce Pfizer's vaccine to make up the difference.

 

[bkp_duke]

Girlfriend got first shot today, teacher. Sister, another teacher, is scheduled for tomorrow. Mother 75+ is scheduled for I think Saturday.

Rollout in PA has been an absolute mess. Supply just sitting around while idiots deal with the red tape. I have a feeling the wealthy are finding their way thru it real quick.

Anywho.....apparently we're accelerating just this week. Girlfriend's shooter today was telling her fellow vaccinator that she'd been trying to volunteer to vaccinate for WEEKS and just got a call yesterday to work today. Splendid.

It's almost like fee-for-service healthcare is horribly inefficient.

Plenty of rich communities in Florida reporting 20-40% vaccination rates already.

Source please, because everyone I know in FL is still waiting on vaccine.



I am happy that your friends and family are finally getting vaccinated.

But don't blame the current healthcare system for the *sugar* rollout. EVERYONE I talk to that I know (physicians, classmates from medschool, nurses I used to work with). ALL of them are waiting on vaccine, and that is 100% government on the state and federal levels.

If anything, this would show you HOW BAD government-run healthcare would be. If they cannot manage a vaccine roll-out, do you really want them handling something more complex?

And no, the rich are not getting the vaccine sooner (honestly, most of them are just hunkering down in their bunkers and are doing just fine with that).

 

[bkp_duke]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/27/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

Both AstraZeneca and Pfizer-BioNTech report manufacturing problems slowing down vaccine production. Good news is Sanofi has said it will produce Pfizer's vaccine to make up the difference.

I wish these companies would focus on ramp-up of the Moderna vaccine. In theory, it should be a lot easier to produce than the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines. Pfizer's strict storage requirements would mean that the manufacturing process is probably similarly rigid. AstraZeneca is a traditional-based vaccine, and those are always more difficult for production.

I wonder if Moderna is not wanting to share their "secret sauce" for their carrier fluid. That's more valuable IP than the actual mRNA.