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And look what Mother Nature just published! [WARNING: not an RCT -- just in vitro + clinical anecdotes + intelligent reasoning + understanding need to share info and hypotheses prior to RCTs]

Hydroxychloroquine, a less toxic derivative of chloroquine, is effective in inhibiting SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro

upload_2020-3-18_6-36-27.png


. . .

upload_2020-3-18_6-38-16.png
 
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So I am getting cautiously optimistic here despite futures going limit down as I write this and Fremont closing up earlier in the night:

Contagion: While R0 estimates are high ,there seems to be some sort of herd immunity already present. Some individuals seem resistant to acquiring the infection. Three items from what I have seen so far:
  • The infection rate on Diamond princess is quite low at 20% given centralized HVAC, and how close the passengers were to each other before it was quarantined. One of the Americans on this trip, the radio station owner from California tested positive while his wife did not, despite being in close contact.
  • There was a picture of the patients who got infected on the bus. Interestingly, the person next to the carrier was good. And people sitting further away and one who got on 30 mins after were infected. Tells me that while its highly contagious, and potentially travels by air, it cannot infect a majority of people.
  • There was the reply tweet from Elon a few hours ago, replying to an article about how the Israeli noble laureate arrived at this conclusion by looking at the Infection rate in Wuhan, which is around 3% from memory
  • More clues from a study upthread on how folks of a specific blood group have worse odds and this is with a high p value
Given the above, I think UKs estimate of 70-80% of the population acquiring it eventually are absurdly high even if some amount of hygiene and social distancing is practiced

Testing: There is the ability to rapidly scale up testing if not for the bureaucracy around who is allowed to do what. Between ELISA, RT-PCR, and antibody tests, it is possible to setup a mechanism where a quick test (ELISA?) with high sensitivity albeit low specificity can be coupled with a RT-PCR test to rapidly screen large number of people. Scaling this if not for the red tape sounds feasible. The tests are cheap and RT-PCR machines are widespread. Even these machines are not that expensive (Most expensive high throughput RT-PCR machines seem to top out at 100k). The reagents seem to be ~$5 a pop. While it may take time to scale up, I think we will have more than adequate testing in a month.

I am sure Elon is thinking of potentially buying enough of these tests and have employees go through screening every week or so. In the big scheme of things this is a small expense, if this can make the case for the facilities to be reopened. Realistically, Lab techs and Nurses may be in short supply rather than materials in a 4-8 week timeframe

Drugs: Seeing many candidates here - Hydroxychloroquin + azithromycin, Hydroxychloroquin + the HIV antiviral, Remdesivir, all seem to be promising therapies. Even if there are complications, and only an 80% effective rate, this should drop the IFR to seasonal flu levels.

Social distancing has become a thing at least in the neck of my woods, and that should naturally slow down some of this. Italy seems to be a worst case scenario for a developed country. While US totally botched up the response, I think there is a lot of reason for optimism. Especially if there is enough data to show use of any of the drugs above can stop a patient from transitioning to a critical condition, we may be able to avoid the run on ventilators and ICU beds.

Feel free to shoot my theories down. I am just a dilettante who knew nothing about epidemics, drugs, tests, or anything else healthcare related, before this pandemic broke.

If German fatality rates remain low. There does seem to be some genetic component to it making certain ppl immune or resistent.

Also africa is performing alot better than I thought. I hope it's not because they are hiding real data.
 
If German fatality rates remain low. There does seem to be some genetic component to it making certain ppl immune or resistent.

Other factors:
  • better tracing of infections and inclusion of more 'mild' cases in the sample
  • younger population affected
  • less smoking
  • less air pollution than in northern Italy
  • fast healthcare response and non-overload of ICU units
I believe the high mortality rate in Italy is primarily due to having much more infected than has been reported. Italy's mortality rate would be comparable with the German one 0.25% if the true infected population was about a factor of 10 higher than the reported 31,000.
 
Lots of sleepless nights but I keep thinking about an idea when a young employee told me they were not concerned at all for their health.

This is an economic/social/health war. In war we have an army. Many in the army sign up with known high risks. Think of your value if you are already immune to this. At this point we need to find a path out of this with the fewest deaths.

Let the younger generation self inoculate in hotels for 2-3 weeks. Let them volunteer to do this with a large payment. A $100K each would be less than we are spending economic bailouts. Once they are immune give them identification cards and let them go work with some other incentive. (No taxes for a period.). They are no longer a risk to the older generation. Focus the protections and social distancing on the older generation with masks etc and let them go to work once enough of the younger generation is immune.

The death rate for the young is 0.2%, but I have read it likely much less when you consider there are many undetected cases. It could be an order of magnitude less. Will some die, yes. I think we have many war examples people have signed up for high risks as patriots for their country.

I know this is radical but we need a path out of the lockdowns.
 
  • Per capita measure of testing. Note US at bottom

We are failing. Continuing to fail. It is unbelievable how incompetent the federal gov’t is at prioritizing this. This has to be one of America’s greatest failings. How hard can it possibly be to pull together the full resources of the federal government and make testing happen?

The sooner we know the status of community spread in all communities, the faster we can open things back up in unaffected areas - once we have really understood the spread and captured nearly all the cases, and can maintain vigilance to prevent further growth.

It is just so disappointing. It’s like we want to fail.

If it's a significant chunk of the population that should make it much more containable

There is no evidence for this. Suppression is required. Any sort of innate resistance empirically does not matter, but would affect the end game.

If German fatality rates remain low.

It won’t.

German one 0.25%

Remember that fatalities lag the case count by 1-3 weeks - the time it takes to die from the disease. I’d expect this fatality rate to go up to 0.7 to 1% or so as time goes by (assuming extensive testing so we are getting the IFR, not the CFR).
 
QUOTE="FrankSG, post: 4574010, member: 108176"]In my case I wouldn't say 90% sure, but I also wouldn't be surprised if I had it too.

I had to visit the ENT specialist at the hospital last Monday for an ear infection. Wore a mask everywhere, but from Thursday to Tuesday I had some very mild symptoms. Had a bit of a sore throat, coughed a few times a day, felt a bit warm/sweaty for 15-30 minutes a few times a day (but body temp normal), and I felt something in my chest/lungs that wasn't 100% normal. Today (Wednesday) I feel 100% normal again.

Nonetheless, I was able to work just fine (self-employed, so at home) and it was pretty much business as usual. Honestly a stuffed nose/allergies are more annoying than this was.[/QUOTE]
In case mods remove it from the main

Same here, but also i had small fever 37.1C, crappy feeling and fatigue. Now only abnormal feeling/slight pain in the chest remaining. Symptomps started last friday. Heard more or less same symptoms same recovery from positively tested people. I think we have in Estonia more than 10% of population already infected. Maybe more, there are crazy amount of asymptomatics. Keep in mind antybodies apearing in 6-10 days, that is why quarantineperiod is two weeks.
 
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Remember that fatalities lag the case count by 1-3 weeks - the time it takes to die from the disease.

That's false: the data doesn't support that view in Italy, nor in Hubei, nor in South Korea, nor on the Diamond Princess.

In fact mortality rate dropped significantly in China in later phases of the outbreak.

The reality of Italy and early Hubei was that vulnerable people die fast from pneumonia, and in Italy many of them aren't even given a chance, they are given an oxygen mask, not enough ICU units ...

This isn't cancer, there's seldom any long struggle with such respiratory illnesses where the viral load explodes early on.
 
If German fatality rates remain low. There does seem to be some genetic component to it making certain ppl immune or resistent.

Also africa is performing alot better than I thought. I hope it's not because they are hiding real data.

German parents don't have adult children at home, unlike Italians. Plus, the death rate seems to jump by an order of magnitude once the medical system exceeds capacity. That problem can also be seen in the high Wuhan death rate compared to the low rates in therest of China.

Low rates so far in Africa and perhaps Australia hopefully suggest a lessen of transmission in summer.
 
German parents don't have adult children at home, unlike Italians. Plus, the death rate seems to jump by an order of magnitude once the medical system exceeds capacity. That problem can also be seen in the high Wuhan death rate compared to the low rates in therest of China.

Low rates so far in Africa and perhaps Australia hopefully suggest a lessen of transmission in summer.

While the seasonal sensitivity of Covid-19 is still an open question, Australia does seem to be faring well so far:
Code:
Feb 18:     0 new cases,     14 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 19:     0 new cases,     14 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 20:     2 new cases,     16 total cases (+11.7%)  #
Feb 21:     2 new cases,     18 total cases (+10.5%)  #
Feb 22:     3 new cases,     21 total cases (+13.6%)  #
Feb 24:     0 new cases,     21 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 25:     0 new cases,     21 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 26:     1 new cases,     22 total cases ( +4.3%)
Feb 27:     0 new cases,     22 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 28:     2 new cases,     24 total cases ( +8.0%)  #
Feb 29:     1 new cases,     25 total cases ( +3.8%)
Mar 01:     3 new cases,     28 total cases (+10.3%)  #
Mar 02:     1 new cases,     29 total cases ( +3.3%)
Mar 03:    10 new cases,     39 total cases (+25.0%)  #####
Mar 04:    26 new cases,     65 total cases (+39.3%)  ###############
Mar 05:     8 new cases,     73 total cases (+10.8%)  ####
Mar 06:     4 new cases,     77 total cases ( +5.1%)  ##
Mar 07:    12 new cases,     89 total cases (+13.3%)  #######
Mar 08:     5 new cases,     94 total cases ( +5.2%)  ##
Mar 09:    20 new cases,    114 total cases (+17.3%)  ###########
Mar 10:    15 new cases,    129 total cases (+11.5%)  ########
Mar 11:    24 new cases,    153 total cases (+15.5%)  ##############
Mar 12:    18 new cases,    171 total cases (+10.4%)  ##########
Mar 13:    41 new cases,    212 total cases (+19.2%)  ########################
Mar 14:    47 new cases,    259 total cases (+18.0%)  ###########################
Mar 15:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 16:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 17:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 18:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)

(Note a reporting artifact: the total number of cases doesn't match the current Australian figure, but the daily deltas are reasonably accurate.)

Note how sharply new cases dropped after the discovery of various clusters - either tracing is exceptionally good, or R0 is much lower there than feared.

There's not much social distancing in Australia yet, and it has a big Chinese community with early infections imported from China, so if R0 was 3 then the outbreak would IMHO be much bigger already.
 
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That's false: the data doesn't support that view in Italy, nor in Hubei, nor in South Korea, nor on the Diamond Princess.

Do you have data for that, for South Korea? I have been watching the South Korea numbers for some time, and the fatality rate is definitely going up over time! About a week ago they were at about 50-60 deaths with a very similar case count to now. Guess I need to pull up the Way Back machine on Worldometer.
EDIT: I checked - a week ago they were at 7700 cases with 60 deaths. Now they are at 8400 with 84 deaths. Two weeks ago they were at 5500 cases with 30 deaths.

Clearly the increasing trend you would expect even if infection to death were just 1 week, in the presence of exponential case growth followed by a plateau.

The other cases are not as relevant due to lack of testing, demographics, collapse of the health care system, etc.

Anyway, we’ll see what happens in Germany.

In fact mortality rate dropped significantly in China in later phases of the outbreak.

Yeah that is not surprising, because at first they had no testing, and there were a whole bunch of people who got better on their own so were not included in CFR. In addition they expanded hospital capacity and were able to provide better care when case counts were near a peak and had better results at that point vs slightly earlier in the outbreak.

Surprisingly, kind of the same boat the United States is in, even though we had two months to prepare.
 
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While the seasonal sensitivity of Covid-19 is still an open question, Australia does seem to be faring well so far:
Code:
Feb 18:     0 new cases,     14 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 19:     0 new cases,     14 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 20:     2 new cases,     16 total cases (+11.7%)  #
Feb 21:     2 new cases,     18 total cases (+10.5%)  #
Feb 22:     3 new cases,     21 total cases (+13.6%)  #
Feb 24:     0 new cases,     21 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 25:     0 new cases,     21 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 26:     1 new cases,     22 total cases ( +4.3%)
Feb 27:     0 new cases,     22 total cases (   +0%)
Feb 28:     2 new cases,     24 total cases ( +8.0%)  #
Feb 29:     1 new cases,     25 total cases ( +3.8%)
Mar 01:     3 new cases,     28 total cases (+10.3%)  #
Mar 02:     1 new cases,     29 total cases ( +3.3%)
Mar 03:    10 new cases,     39 total cases (+25.0%)  #####
Mar 04:    26 new cases,     65 total cases (+39.3%)  ###############
Mar 05:     8 new cases,     73 total cases (+10.8%)  ####
Mar 06:     4 new cases,     77 total cases ( +5.1%)  ##
Mar 07:    12 new cases,     89 total cases (+13.3%)  #######
Mar 08:     5 new cases,     94 total cases ( +5.2%)  ##
Mar 09:    20 new cases,    114 total cases (+17.3%)  ###########
Mar 10:    15 new cases,    129 total cases (+11.5%)  ########
Mar 11:    24 new cases,    153 total cases (+15.5%)  ##############
Mar 12:    18 new cases,    171 total cases (+10.4%)  ##########
Mar 13:    41 new cases,    212 total cases (+19.2%)  ########################
Mar 14:    47 new cases,    259 total cases (+18.0%)  ###########################
Mar 15:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 16:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 17:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)
Mar 18:     0 new cases,    259 total cases (   +0%)

(Note a reporting artifact: the total number of cases doesn't match the current Australian figure, but the daily deltas are reasonably accurate.)

Note how sharply new cases dropped after the discovery of various clusters - either tracing is exceptionally good, or R0 is much lower there than feared.

There's not much social distancing in Australia yet, and it has a big Chinese community with early infections imported from China, so if R0 was 3 then the outbreak would IMHO be much bigger already.

I think your Australian data hasn’t been updated the last 4 days, Coronavirus Update (Live): 204,047 Cases and 8,250 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer has 565 cases, with 110 new cases today.
 
I think your Australian data hasn’t been updated the last 4 days, Coronavirus Update (Live): 204,047 Cases and 8,250 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer has 565 cases, with 110 new cases today.

Australia has 25 million (?) people and plenty of movement of people with China.

Mexico, where it is early summer, also has a low rate. Within the U.S. how Florida does in the next month may be indicative of virus spread in summer.

I'm not defending a position that warm weather makes a big difference. I'm just being hopeful.
 
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I'm not defending a position that warm weather makes a big difference. I'm just being hopeful.

It’s nice weather in Spain, yet they announced 2000+ new cases today and almost 100 deaths. We’ll have to solve this ourselves by eliminating social contacts as much as possible. The regions in Italy that went in lockdown first are now seeing that this works.
 
And look what Mother Nature just published! [WARNING: not an RCT -- just in vitro + clinical anecdotes + intelligent reasoning + understanding need to share info and hypotheses prior to RCTs]

Hydroxychloroquine, a less toxic derivative of chloroquine, is effective in inhibiting SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro

View attachment 523031

. . .

View attachment 523032

Not to squash the party, but it’s in vitro effects are well documented for a loooong time now.

In VIVO anyone? We do have some, but we need all the results on that now. Seems to have been used on thousands of patients show us the numbers.
 
It'll probably end up being Remdesivir for the rich and Hydrochloroquin for the poor.
The caveat is, if this works so well. How come we don't hear much about the chloroquin trials in China? Why is the Hydroxy version better?


Disclaimer: I own Gilead who manufacturers Remdesivir.

Have not heard anything about Remdesivir. Nada. Not even bull anecdotal which most people here are equating HCQ stories too. Being used for a couple of months now and nothing.

Hard to imagine it has been working and no one has shared. Stock has not showed much either.

disclaimer: I own Gilead too.

Formal Remdesivir trials are just starting. It will be a long while to get meaningful results from them.

However, there are reports of compassionate use cases out there in the wild. For example, three from a group of twelve earlier COVID-19 patients in the US were given Remdesivir. They all recovered, but so did rest.
The three that did receive Remdesivir all had transient gastrointestinal symptoms, including nausea, vomiting, gastroparesis, or rectal bleeding, and elevated liver enzymes in the blood.

True,

But the science seems sound. It opens the hole in the cells membrane for zinc to get in. In a lot of recommendations, it looks like it's the last resort medicin. But it is actually better to be used early before catastrophic lung damage is already done.

Last I heard is just phase 1 is going smoothly. There's still several phases.
Metoo own me some Gilead. Must be pretty contagious around here, no? ;)
 
Don't downplay this thinking the US is too wide and large: the problem will never be Arkansas or Utah, but Los Angeles, New York, Chicago. Dense cities will be enough for nightmarish scenarios.
I could easily see small towns in Arkansas having nightmarish scenarios with a significant outbreak among a vulnerable population and limited hospital facilities. It wouldn't take much.
 
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Actually, we know a lot right now about this virus. And there is ZERO innate / natural immunity to this that anyone has been able to show. Because a large chuck on the population is over 60, and at what we as a doctors would call "extreme" risk, the idea of letting this blow through the population to generate immunity has been largely discredited (the number of severe cases requiring hospitalization would overwhelm the medical system - in all countries). The UK initially followed this idea, and then quickly backed off once they got an idea of the impact to their medical system. They probably saw what happened in Italy, that didn't take social distancing serious until too late, and rightly decided to change their minds.

15% death rate in 80+ group with ZERO comorbidities is absolutely enough in and of itself to overwhelm most countries.
Coronavirus Age, Sex, Demographics (COVID-19) - Worldometer

I was responding to someone pointing out that some people from the Diamond Princess were clearly exposed, including the spouse of someone who did develop symptoms, but did not test positive themselves, even after some time. If this is true, it could be a case of someone on the end of the bell curve who developed immunity after exposure so quickly, they never had a detectable viral load, or it may be an indication they had some innate immunity.

If all the facts reported are true (there is a possibility a reporter somewhere got something wrong, testing was lax, or something else), some people appear to possibly be immune.

I wouldn't pin any hopes on it though. The best approach is to assume nobody has innate immunity, but some people, especially a large percentage of the young will be symptom free but some of this group will actually have a high viral load and are contagious. How many of this group who will be symptom free are contagious while symptom free and how many are not is unknown.

I have no argument with what you wrote above.

There is no evidence for this. Suppression is required. Any sort of innate resistance empirically does not matter, but would affect the end game.

I am not making a case that containment is not necessary. If there are people with innate immunity, and if that population is relatively large, that makes fighting this outbreak like fighting a forest fire when the trees have some moisture in them compared to a severe drought year at the end of summer. In the former case the fire will be easier to contain than in the latter case because it will not spread as fast or as randomly as when the trees are all dry kindling. Only an idiot would argue that a forest fire, especially one near civilization, should be left alone because the trees are damper than a worst case scenario.

We definitely need to take all the measures in our power to slow the spread so the health care system does not get overloaded. And any evidence that some people have innate immunity is preliminary data and not conclusive of anything. Again taking any action based on inconclusive data that has catastrophic consequences if your wrong is nuts when taking the worst case approach has as its worst case a bit more economic damage and inconveniencing a chunk of the population.

There are people out there saying that COVID-19 could turn out to be like Y2K and claiming that was a chicken little situation. I had no involvement directly with Y2K, but I'm a programmer and knew programmers who were working the problem at the time. It was a real threat that could have had catastrophic consequences if not addressed, but all the critical systems that were going to be affected were identified far enough in advance the issue was fixed before it became a problem. And fortunately for that issue, the solution was a bit tedious, but easy for a programmer who knew the original programming language to solve. It just took finding the critical parts of the code and in most cases making one simple fix.

This problem has vastly more unknowns than Y2K and the outcomes range from a relatively low death count and quick containment to a catastrophe at least as big as the 1918 flu, and possibly bigger. Some countries may be on track for the low end scenario, but none of them are out of the woods yet. The 1918 flu had two waves with the second wave much worse than the first. It's unknown where the US will fall, but the low end scenario is probably not going to happen now. Though I think a middle of the range outcome might be possible if we don't screw up anything else. If a decent percentage of the population had innate immunity and were never contagious, that would help slow it down along with the other measures we're employing.

If there isn't innate immunity or it's rare, we will have the scenario of trying to fight a forest fire at the height of a severe drought. The job of containment will be tougher.
 
Lots of sleepless nights but I keep thinking about an idea when a young employee told me they were not concerned at all for their health.

This is an economic/social/health war. In war we have an army. Many in the army sign up with known high risks. Think of your value if you are already immune to this. At this point we need to find a path out of this with the fewest deaths.

Let the younger generation self inoculate in hotels for 2-3 weeks. Let them volunteer to do this with a large payment. A $100K each would be less than we are spending economic bailouts. Once they are immune give them identification cards and let them go work with some other incentive. (No taxes for a period.). They are no longer a risk to the older generation. Focus the protections and social distancing on the older generation with masks etc and let them go to work once enough of the younger generation is immune.

The death rate for the young is 0.2%, but I have read it likely much less when you consider there are many undetected cases. It could be an order of magnitude less. Will some die, yes. I think we have many war examples people have signed up for high risks as patriots for their country.

I know this is radical but we need a path out of the lockdowns.

It is not the first time the virus passes through but the second, just laying in wait, and your younger theory at that time may fall apart? We need to isolate until the world can figure out a way to fight this (that is not my field of expertise). We should view it as you do not what to give the virus to others or someone you love not fear getting it. The ignorance of Elon lately proves my theory that some of the smartest people can be blind to what is obvious to so many. In the grand scheme of the world is a tesla the most important at this time? It appears it is difficult to care about others.