Coronavirus

[AlanSubie4Life]

I can't see face shields alone being particularly effective--at least no the kind of face shields I envision with just a curved plastic front and no sealing.

Oh absolutely. Can't rely on a face shield alone. Personally I wear protective glasses (not fully enclosed goggles, though I would wear a full face mask if I had one) when at the grocery store and other high risk places, in addition to an N95.

I should probably look into just adding a face shield to my mask. Would be less annoying than glasses, which can fog, and the fogging can result in more hands near the face to try to deal with those issues.

Anyone have recommendations on a quality face shield? I'm sure there are tons out there, not all of the same quality.

 

[madodel]

News flash (not really): Temperature checks won't be very effective. Hopefully Tesla is following their playbook and has a bunch of other checks in place as well (along with mandatory masking of course). Redundancy of checks & control measures is important to limit risk here (and the risk in Alameda County is substantial given the disease burden and the factory size).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0916-2.pdf

Hopefully they have disabled all drinking fountains at the Tesla factory, and for the bathrooms allow just one person at a time, have disabled automatic hand dryers, have ensured that all automatic paper towel dispensers are working correctly, and have installed sanitary (foot) door openers on all restroom doors. I didn't see these items in their playbook but I might have missed them.

My wife and apparently everyone else working at her hospital was getting annoyed by the daily temperature tests (made more annoying by using some ancient cockamamie device that has to be swiped across the forehead. How stupid is that to check for infectious disease? Though they did wipe it with an alcohol wipe in between). Now they have to fill out a form using a phone app to say they have no fever or cough.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Now they have to fill out a form using a phone app to say they have no fever or cough.

Makes sense. Hopefully they cover all the other big ticket symptoms too - especially loss of taste & smell.

I like the idea of self-screening and risk assessment of employees. I have previously suggested that Tesla do individual risk assessment forms on all their employees (yes, it is an invasion of employee privacy, but it should be temporary only) to assess their level of community exposure (children, elder care obligations, size of household/risks of household members, activities outside the home, use of public transport, etc.). If they are assessed at high risk, either provide additional screening, or provide support to all such employees to reduce risk (child care, transport, etc.), or provide unlimited paid leave for the time being. For example, a factory worker who has a spouse who works in health care caring for COVID patients, should probably be provided with unlimited paid leave, or be allowed to work from home in some other capacity. Could even make the assessment voluntary, and do enhanced screening (or provide them with unlimited paid leave - not sure if that would have too high a take rate though...) on those who do not want to participate.

 

[Ben W]

My wife and apparently everyone else working at her hospital was getting annoyed by the daily temperature tests (made more annoying by using some ancient cockamamie device that has to be swiped across the forehead. How stupid is that to check for infectious disease? Though they did wipe it with an alcohol wipe in between). Now they have to fill out a form using a phone app to say they have no fever or cough.

Forehead swipe, super annoying I agree. I think most places in Asia use a touchless infrared sensor. But it's not necessarily a bad idea to do it; if people know they will be physically screened, they'll be less likely to try to hide symptoms and work anyway to avoid taking a sick day. Every fever you do catch by screening is likely several transmissions prevented. As far as the form, might be useful to ask additional questions: e.g. loss of smell or taste (as Alan mentioned), and also whether they've recently been around other sick people or had any other known exposure.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Again, I have no horse in the HCQ race (I've previously expressed my opinion about the likelihood of effectiveness, and the likely strength of the effect), but the Lancet is warning about the uncertainty associated with the data used in that study of HCQ:

 

[Ben W]

Again, I have no horse in the HCQ race (I've previously expressed my opinion about the likelihood of effectiveness, and the likely strength of the effect), but the Lancet is warning about the uncertainty associated with the data used in that study of HCQ:

"Macrolide" = antibiotic like azithromycin. (I had to look that up.) From the huge firehose of HCQ articles and studies I've seen, it seems that HCQ + zinc taken early on may be the most promising combination left to investigate, but still needs a lot more study (i.e. a proper double-blind trial) to confirm/refute. Similarly with Vitamin D; the correlations between Vitamin D levels and symptom severity are striking, but causation has yet to be shown, to my knowledge.

 

[Norbert]

and at the time I didn't realize he was a doctor and questioned his claim that the eyes have no connection to the nose)).

Really? I remember hearing one shouldn't touch one's eyes, but the ears don't matter.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

The smartest man in the world is taking a crack at covid modeling. Perk up @jhm , your guru is at work!

Covid-19 expert Karl Friston: 'Germany may have more immunological “dark matter”'

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Really? I remember hearing one shouldn't touch one's eyes, but the ears don't matter.

It was a long discussion, condensed here for your reading pleasure.

That would help, but we sadly do not have enough. Also, if it paradoxically encourages people to go out more, it might not actually reduce transmission vs. strict social distancing with no masks.

Certainly it would be nice to have them in use, for essential trips. But it is just one of various pieces of protective equipment you must use.

Used properly all that stuff of course could help - but you have to be trained to use it properly...and again, paradoxical bad behavior could mean that it makes things worse, not better.

Please stop playing physician, and stop spewing FUD

You posted earlier that wearing a mask requires 'training.' That is absolute rubbish and the worse kind of FUD
You posted earlier that face mask use is not central to the successful countries in Asia. Prove it, or redact the FUD

To be clear, I would wear one if they were readily available for cheap (because that would indicate no shortage), and healthcare workers had all the masks they needed.

I added to my post. Be sure to wear your protective full coverage goggles too. The droplets can just as easily end up in your eyes as in your nose or mouth (in fact, more likely, due to surface area, unless you have your mouth open). And the eyes are directly connected to the nose of course.

Stop playing physician.

My eyeballs do not breathe. Do yours ?

You don’t have to be a physician, man.
Have you ever wondered why your nose gets stuffy when you cry?
Look up nasolacrimal duct. This is not that hard.

I am a physician, and trust me, you are spewing FUD.

That is disturbing, I suppose. Since my eyes are clearly connected directly to my nose - I can blow air out of my eyes no problem - I just did it. But anyway, you do you.
As I have always said - plenty of value to masks. Even better if all the sick people wear them too.

Just STOP.
That duct lubricates the eyes. The point is that eyes do not have a negative pressure front like the nose and mouth.
It is more than theoretically true that the eyes can be a route of infection which is why you have to learn to keep your hands clean. But in terms of avoiding infection in public spaces MASKS are the key.
You are now on ignore for the duration.

I never said masks were not helpful. But there are not enough masks, so this is an academic point - it is not something we can do today. And they should go to the healthcare workers and the ill and at-risk people first. When they are super cheap, I will buy and use them.

I always wear a mask when around other people.

 

[SVMike]

Clearly something is happening. Wisconsin has been completely open for a couple of weeks, very low death rate. As other states are opening death rates are not going up or are just slightly higher. This hit like a hurricane and now it's barely a tropical storm. Warmer weather? Or it's burning itself out.

On the savanna after the lions and cheetahs take out the weaker members of the herd the hunts take longer and don't have as high of a success rate...so it looks like the predators aren't as strong.

The same could be true with people where the more vulnerable are being more protected and/or taking more precautions.

 

[dhanson865]

Just a reminder to anyone new to wearing a mask. They stop solids not gases or liquids.

I mentioned previously how well the single ply shop towel mask did vs pollen.

I can also say from experience it won't protect you from what ever a burning electrical motor puts off (old vacuum cleaner in the office building). I don't know what the hazard is in this instance but it's a good reminder that a dust mask, homemade mask, or N95 will not protect you from random exposure to chemicals or other toxic substances.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The smartest man in the world is taking a crack at covid modeling. Perk up @jhm , your guru is at work!

Covid-19 expert Karl Friston: 'Germany may have more immunological “dark matter”'

Yeah, super odd commentary from that guy. The obvious reason is that UK is doing less testing than Germany (look at their test to death ratio!), so that is why the CFR is higher in the UK. Which, for some reason, he discounted!

Carl Bergstrom has already called bull on this one.

Karl Friston is not the sharpest tool in the shed, I guess. Everyone sucks at what they do I suppose.

 

[Ben W]

Really? I remember hearing one shouldn't touch one's eyes, but the ears don't matter.

If you start coughing through your ears, definitely see a doctor.

 

[Ben W]

Just a reminder to anyone new to wearing a mask. They stop solids not gases or liquids.

I mentioned previously how well the single ply shop towel mask did vs pollen.

I can also say from experience it won't protect you from what ever a burning electrical motor puts off (old vacuum cleaner in the office building). I don't know what the hazard is in this instance but it's a good reminder that a dust mask, homemade mask, or N95 will not protect you from random exposure to chemicals or other toxic substances.

Cloth masks stop liquids (droplets) very effectively, more so than tiny solids (pollen) or gases. That is the whole point. The compounds emitted by burning electrical motors are orders of magnitude smaller than droplets, or even than viruses for that matter, so of course cloth masks don't stop them.

The reason your cloth mask is intended to protect others instead of yourself is that it can stop liquid droplets on the way out much more effectively than it can stop evaporated aerosolized particles on the way in. By blocking droplets on the way out, they don't get into the environment where they could evaporate and then penetrate someone else's mask.

Edit: Funny? Do elaborate.

 

[dhanson865]

Cloth masks stop liquids (droplets) very effectively, more so than tiny solids (pollen) or gases. That is the whole point. The compounds emitted by burning electrical motors are orders of magnitude smaller than droplets, or even than viruses for that matter, so of course cloth masks don't stop them.

The reason your cloth mask is intended to protect others instead of yourself is that it can stop liquid droplets on the way out much more effectively than it can stop evaporated aerosolized particles on the way in. By blocking droplets on the way out, they don't get into the environment where they could evaporate and then penetrate someone else's mask.

a dry mask will slow a sneeze or cough, yes that is a desired behavior. But they don't stop the liquid, they slow it down, liquid still passes through the mask when you sneeze or cough (especially since you used the term "cloth" mask)

They also would not protect you from a liquid that off gasses (it would soak into the mask and then release gas inside the mask) or a liquid that can irritate the skin (it could wick through the mask and make contact with skin behind the mask. And so on.

Any good N95 mask always has the warning "do NOT wear if wet or soiled". That isn't just a warning about biologicals.

I know this is a Coronavirus thread, my point is just because you are wearing a mask that stops viruses doesn't mean it will also stop other liquids or gases that might harm you.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Yeah, super odd commentary from that guy. The obvious reason is that UK is doing less testing than Germany (look at their test to death ratio!), so that is why the CFR is higher in the UK. Which, for some reason, he discounted!

Carl Bergstrom has already called bull on this one.

Karl Friston is not the sharpest tool in the shed, I guess. Everyone sucks at what they do I suppose.

Karl Friston is a neurologist and widely considered to be the smartest human on the planet.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Karl Friston is a neurologist and widely considered to be the smartest human on the planet.

That's funny. Must be one of the silliest things he has ever said, in that case. Possibly, when normalized to the intelligence of the speaker, the phrase "immunological dark matter" is the silliest phrase uttered in history.

Obviously, there are things we don't know about whether a portion of the population is immune/resistant (due to cross-reactive antibodies to other coronaviruses or whatever), and they may be (we'll probably know within a couple months once there has been time to study it). But that likely has little to do with how the epidemic would proceed at the low attack rates in the UK & German populations so far.

From the illustrious Karl Friston:
'We’ve been comparing the UK and Germany to try to explain the comparatively low fatality rates in Germany. The answers are sometimes counterintuitive. For example, it looks as if the low German fatality rate is not due to their superior testing capacity, but rather to the fact that the average German is less likely to get infected and die than the average Brit. Why? There are various possible explanations, but one that looks increasingly likely is that Germany has more immunological “dark matter” '

New Zealand must have some serious immunological dark matter - their fatality rate is over three times less than Germany's!!! Amazing.

 

[Ben W]

a dry mask will stop a sneeze or cough, yes that is a desired behavior. But they would not protect you from a liquid that off gasses (it would soak into the mask and then release gas inside the mask) or a liquid that can irritate the skin (it could wick through the mask and make contact with skin behind the mask. And so on.

Any good N95 mask always has the warning "do NOT wear if wet or soiled". That isn't just a warning about biologicals.

Yes of course, you want to start with a clean dry mask. If it gets slightly damp because you're breathing into it, that's probably ok. (Might even improve its filtration efficiency by increasing humidity / reducing evaporation.) But if you spill lighter fluid or weed killer on it, catching coronavirus at that moment is the least of your problems!

 

[Norbert]

If you start coughing through your ears, definitely see a doctor.

1 second after posting it, I knew that sentence was going to invite a joke. : )

 

[Doggydogworld]

Yes, just the "easy" mitigations (no large superspreader events, conventions, packed bars/nightclubs or subways) immediately lowers R by a very significant factor, so that caps how bad things can get as other businesses reopen.

Another easy mitigation is isolating people with mild symptoms. It cuts R(t) roughly in half and may be the single most effective countermeasure. Most with symptoms will self-isolate today, even when "it's just allergies", but we need to put incentives in place to make that last.

Pre-symptomatic spread can't be stopped with a single countermeasure, but masks and good hygiene combined with large gathering bans and moderately competent test-and-trace can probably keep R below 1. Especially in summer.