Coronavirus

[SageBrush]

I think that's a pretty good indicator that the 12 hour freeze wasn't simply to spare us running in circles, but, to let people cool down and hopefully return to a more respectful dialog.

Did you think the discussion between ppx and dfwatt et al was disrespectful ? Perhaps you are confusing criticism with disrespect.

I didn't. At all. And certainly nothing that would approach a TOS violation. Perhaps a waste of time but that is in the eyes of the reader and we all have the ability to skip posts we think fall into that category. E.g., I have ppx on ignore, specifically to remove his HCQ posts from my feed. I still see responses but I mostly just skip over those without reading them.

 

[SteveG3]

Did you think the discussion between ppx and dfwatt et al was disrespectful ? Perhaps you are confusing criticism with disrespect.

I didn't. At all. And certainly nothing that would approach a TOS violation. Perhaps a waste of time but that is in the eyes of the reader and we all have the ability to skip posts we think fall into that category. E.g., I have ppx on ignore, specifically to remove his HCQ posts from my feed. I still see responses but I mostly just skip over those without reading them.

I don't think it's helpful to putting this behind us if I comment on specific individuals' postings on this issue. What's more, ggr never said his/her decision to freeze was specifically about the interactions of the two posters you mentioned anyway.

Do I think there have been caustic comments aimed at individuals in the days leading up to the 12 hour freeze? yes, and in the twenty plus posts since the freeze has been lifted as well. I'm not naming names, "who started it," etc., because I think the point is to try to leave it behind us and out of the thread going forward. I well understand that you do not need to agree with me on any of this.

 

[jerry33]

Here in lies the problem. This thread has ZERO to do with TSLA investing. Maybe in the beginning it did or intended to do so but it is clearly not related or discussed here in the most recent 800 posts.

This poster has Papafox on ignore. The same Papafox who provides some of the most valuable daily analysis about TSLA for investing. So this poster is ignoring investor talk because of HCQ talk. See the point.

Measured objectively, a thread should be a sticky for investor discussions if actually discusses TSLA. It is quite clear that this is not the case here or in the politics thread. Kill threads or, at a minimum, remove from sticky would be wise.

More correctly, this thread--similar to many other threads--came out of the Investor thread because it was off topic. Some parts of CV-19 relate to investing which are still posted in the Investment thead. I don't believe anyone expected this thread to be about investing.

 

[SageBrush]

Do I think there have been caustic comments aimed at individuals in the days leading up to the 12 hour freeze? yes

You are moving the goalposts, the TOS does not forbid caustic comments, and I might point out that your uncertainty what lead to the thread lock applies equally well to your guess why.

So on the one hand no one is sure why ggr locked the thread, or it was locked for reasons outside the TOS

This is why I think ggr has no business being a Mod. I recognize that some people will defend ggr's actions if they seem to support a personal opinion about HCQ or another TMC member but to be blunt, that is missing the point of moderation.

 

[madodel]

You are moving the goalposts, the TOS does not forbid caustic comments, and I might point out that your uncertainty what lead to the thread lock applies equally well to your guess why.

So on the one hand no one is sure why ggr locked the thread, or it was locked for reasons outside the TOS

This is why I think ggr has no business being a Mod. I recognize that some people will defend ggr's actions if they seem to support a personal opinion about HCQ or another TMC member but to be blunt, that is missing the point of moderation.

The endless cycle of HCQ has just gotten ridiculously annoying. It just feeds on itself. It stopped being Standard of Care months ago. If there is something new then it becomes on topic. I think freezing the thread was a bit much, but I understand that GGR felt he had to do something to end it. Now we are in an endless loop of discussing the end of the endless HCQ loop. It's hilarious. HCQ has taken over the simulation even when it was force quit. It just won't die.

 

[dfwatt]

Did you think the discussion between ppx and dfwatt et al was disrespectful ? Perhaps you are confusing criticism with disrespect.

I didn't. At all. And certainly nothing that would approach a TOS violation. Perhaps a waste of time but that is in the eyes of the reader and we all have the ability to skip posts we think fall into that category. E.g., I have ppx on ignore, specifically to remove his HCQ posts from my feed. I still see responses but I mostly just skip over those without reading them.

I can only say that for myself I did not feel that there was any rancor or disrespect or even anger or irritation on either side (mine or his) in any of this discussion between myself and PapaFox. I was simply saying that I don't think there's much chance further studies are going to resuscitate hydroxychloroquine, and that although there might still be margin for that that the margins were getting thin, but again that's just my opinion, and His opinion was different – and he clearly has the right to that different opinion. And neither opinion is any version of the last word.

If that discussion was the reason the thread is locked then that's bizarre, although I understand and agree that the HCQ debate has become amazingly tedious.

 

[ohmman]

You are moving the goalposts, the TOS does not forbid caustic comments, and I might point out that your uncertainty what lead to the thread lock applies equally well to your guess why.

So on the one hand no one is sure why ggr locked the thread, or it was locked for reasons outside the TOS

This is why I think ggr has no business being a Mod. I recognize that some people will defend ggr's actions if they seem to support a personal opinion about HCQ or another TMC member but to be blunt, that is missing the point of moderation.

A moderator can always cite the comfortably broad clause under 5.(i):

disrupt the normal flow of dialogue

as a violation of the TOS. It is a defensible position to say that arguing about the same nonsense repeatedly does disrupt the normal flow of dialogue. So I disagree with your assessment.

Additionally, you may have overlooked this portion of the TOS:

You further understand that TMC staff and it's volunteer moderators have the final say when it comes to post removals or edits. We make every effort to reach an understanding when dealing with posts that need to be removed or edited. If you have an issue with a volunteer moderator, or a choice made by them, you are asked to bring it to a site administrators attention to look into and handle.

 

[SteveG3]

I can only say that for myself I did not feel that there was any rancor or disrespect or even anger or irritation on either side (mine or his) in any of this discussion between myself and PapaFox. I was simply saying that I don't think there's much chance further studies are going to resuscitate hydroxychloroquine, and that although there might still be margin for that that the margins were getting thin, but again that's just my opinion, and His opinion was different – and he clearly has the right to that different opinion. And neither opinion is any version of the last word.

If that discussion was the reason the thread is locked then that's bizarre.

was not specifically directed at the two of you, nothing to discuss about it, because that wasn't what it was.

on the prior page

"I was giving everyone involved in that argument about HCQ a timeout, without putting a bunch of individuals in separate corners" - ggr

 

[Causalien]

Timeout is a goid use of mod power when you don't want members to hate each other after a debate. The alternative is a ban.

In any case. Can we focus on discussion of vaccine candidates? Tgere are so many out there right now I don't know which one I should take when tgey come out.

That's all, I am back to hiding.

 

[SageBrush]

It is a defensible position to say that arguing about the same nonsense repeatedly does disrupt the normal flow of dialogue. So I disagree with your assessment.

Two people rehash old posts and in the interests of dialogue flow the thread is locked per the TOS ?

You must be joking.

Your comment that Mod criticism has its own venue is noted.

 

[SteveG3]

Two people rehash old posts and in the interests of dialogue flow the thread is locked per the TOS ?

You must be joking.

Your comment that Mod criticism has its own venue is noted.

...

Sorry, I thought it was obvious, I was giving everyone involved in that argument about HCQ a timeout, without putting a bunch of individuals in separate corners. I said it would be unlocked at latest this morning, so why people reacted as if I locked it forever I don't know. Other moderators have suggested nuking this and the politics thread entirely.

emphasis added

 

[NikolaACDC]

Here

Here are the most promising coronavirus vaccine candidates out there | Live Science

is an overview of the most promising vaccine candidates.

Might be worth keeping bookmarked because they say they will keep it up-to-date:
"Editor’s Note: ... This story will be updated as new information from ongoing trials becomes available."

 

[NikolaACDC]

Here
German Health Expert Karl Lauterbach: "The Authorities Should Focus Their Efforts on Super-Spreaders" - DER SPIEGEL - International

a German politician and health expert proposes to change procedures going forward:

"DER SPIEGEL: Thus far, the authorities have been tracking all the contacts from new infections in order to break the chain. What's wrong with that strategy?
Lauterbach: This approach is totally inefficient; we're on the wrong track. Instead of contacting each individual contact by phone, the authorities should focus their efforts on so-called super-spreaders, those few highly contagious cases that often infect dozens of people in group situations. They alone are the driving force behind the pandemic. We now know that individual transmitters have almost no effect on the exponential growth. If we don't change course on this issue, the second wave will be intense."
...
Lauterbach: I am in favor of adopting Japan's strategy, which has proven most effective in the fight against super-spreaders. The Japanese didn't impose a strict lockdown during the first wave, but they were roughly as successful as we were. That is exactly what we need for the second wave. The virologist Christian Drosten (one of Germany’s leading figures in the COVID-19 crisis) also sees this strategy as the correct course of action.
DER SPIEGEL: What would that mean for Germany's health authorities?
Lauterbach: When someone is tested, they must be systematically questioned with the help of a form whether they were present at a potential super-spreader in the preceding days -- a choir event, a wedding -- or if they are a teacher in a school. If the test is positive, all other participants in the event must be immediately quarantined without delay, even before they are tested. That is the only way to prevent them from passing the virus along during the period in which they are contagious."

 

[madodel]

Here

Here are the most promising coronavirus vaccine candidates out there | Live Science

is an overview of the most promising vaccine candidates.

Might be worth keeping bookmarked because they say they will keep it up-to-date:
"Editor’s Note: ... This story will be updated as new information from ongoing trials becomes available."

No mention of Sanofi and GSK working on a new vaccine announced today. I bring this up because Sanofi is about the only non-government or hospital related large employer in my county. We need jobs since everyone with any brains leaves here unless they work for our State University, our hospitals, our US Army Depot or Sanofi. So everyone hold out for the Sanofi vaccine. Thank you.

Sanofi and GlaxoSmithKline Snag Biggest Coronavirus Vaccine Deal Yet

 

[SageBrush]

a German politician and health expert proposes to change procedures going forward:

I think there is some merit in the 'super spreader' notion but I'm skeptical for a few reasons:

1. It mixes up highly infectious people with highly infectious environments and situations
2. The ability to isolate these people early enough to make a difference is not obvious. As exhibit 'A' I present S. Korea

---
I do very much agree that the current approaches can be improved upon. First and foremost, people have to get out of public buildings as much as possible; and second, ventilation has to be markedly improved in buildings that are still in use. These issues are going to only become bigger Covid-19 transmission problems as it gets colder.

I was speaking to a small grocery store owner the other week about moving his lunch business (now take out only) outside. He mentioned that the city has given a carte blanche to sidewalk eating without requiring a permit (good) but his landlord has not answered his request and he is hesitant to move outside without permission. I'd love to see my city provide an opt-out upon reasonable request for all eateries to provide sidewalk service if a serviceable sidewalk is available.

 

[bkp_duke]

Here

Here are the most promising coronavirus vaccine candidates out there | Live Science

is an overview of the most promising vaccine candidates.

Might be worth keeping bookmarked because they say they will keep it up-to-date:
"Editor’s Note: ... This story will be updated as new information from ongoing trials becomes available."

Of all of these, the Moderna and Oxford vaccines are furthest along, with the Moderna being furthest along of all of them, in terms of Phase 3 recruitment.

 

[Open Interest]

Just a data point.

The diagnostic testing sites in my county (in the San Francisco Bay Area region) are warning patients that results can take up to 2 weeks to get back currently as the labs are backed up.
.

Of all of these, the Moderna and Oxford vaccines are furthest along, with the Moderna being furthest along of all of them, in terms of Phase 3 recruitment.

 

[wdolson]

What's worrisome about the vaccine situation is the political pressure that's being applied to the FDA and through various Administration proxies to the drug companies themselves to get a vaccine on a timetable that would help Trump's re-election. Plus many of the folks in the administration who are stakeholders in various big Pharma operations have just been immunized against conflict of interest suggesting that conflicts of interest are rampant. What else is new? This is just another area where the question has to be asked will guardrails actually hold or will they be supervened and will we get a vaccine rushed to Market that in fact is either ineffective and / or dangerous?

Because of the political pressure being applied, I'm concerned that something that would never be approved under normal circumstances will slip through. There is some testing going on, so it won't be rat poison, but there is still the possibility that somebody will hide some critical data that could get some people hurt or killed when it's rolled out.

Among the political pressure being applied is a moratorium on all liability and malpractice lawsuits. It's in the Senate relief bill. If that passes, then there is nothing anybody can do who is hurt by an improperly tested vaccine.

As for the rancor here. Things started circling the drain when people started attacking each other instead of sticking to the topic. It's a common fallacy people do when arguing, but it is ultimately a losing tactic. It causes the recipient to dig in deeper, ticks off anyone moderating, and usually loses much of the audience.

One forum I moderated years ago we pretty much allowed any topic, but had fairly strict rules on personal attacks. We kicked people off who wouldn't stop the personal attacks. Over the years there were some pretty interesting debates and in many cases both sides learned something. The audience usually did too.

 

[Open Interest]

Once again I am late to the table, and it looks like this discussion is over. Just want to add that I personally would hate to see this thread closed down or nuked.

I come here first for Covid news, or to verify what I have read in the media. I don’t know where else to find such thorough discussions as we have here on modeling and spread projections, early discussions about masks, and currently drugs and therapies. I especially find discussions about the drug studies enlightening - you can’t find this level of expertise in the media.

For those of us not in medicine or related sciences - those medical studies are greek, and who knows if what is reported in the media is accurate. Being able to understand information, study methods and results, is so important because we base many decisions for ourselves and our families on what is perceived to be true. My son is a young doctor fresh off a year as Chief Resident, and he’s happy to explain things to me - but he’s a busy guy. So I just finished a course in how to read medical studies, and there is a lot to it. I have really enjoyed the discussions here, which are practical applications of topics I studied.

TL;DR. In my view there is quite a lot of value added here.

 

[dfwatt]

Because of the political pressure being applied, I'm concerned that something that would never be approved under normal circumstances will slip through. There is some testing going on, so it won't be rat poison, but there is still the possibility that somebody will hide some critical data that could get some people hurt or killed when it's rolled out.

Among the political pressure being applied is a moratorium on all liability and malpractice lawsuits. It's in the Senate relief bill. If that passes, then there is nothing anybody can do who is hurt by an improperly tested vaccine.

As for the rancor here. Things started circling the drain when people started attacking each other instead of sticking to the topic. It's a common fallacy people do when arguing, but it is ultimately a losing tactic. It causes the recipient to dig in deeper, ticks off anyone moderating, and usually loses much of the audience.

One forum I moderated years ago we pretty much allowed any topic, but had fairly strict rules on personal attacks. We kicked people off who wouldn't stop the personal attacks. Over the years there were some pretty interesting debates and in many cases both sides learned something. The audience usually did too.

My biggest concern about the vaccination issue is the careful ruling out of pathological enhancement. This refers to how re-presentation of and challenge with exposure to the pathogen after inoculation causes a significantly enhanced and self-destructive inflammatory reaction. This has been demonstrated in relationship to other coronaviruses particularly in relationship to lung involvement. Russia is pushing ahead pell-mell into widespread vaccination without any attempt to ensure that this is not a hidden risk. The second concern is just how do you rule out rapidly fading immunity if your phase 3 trial lasts a couple of months and then the stuff is on the market. People are all focused on antibodies these days which are fairly quickly declining after covid-19 infection is cleared, but T Cell immunity should be long-lasting but we don't have any data on antibody levels length of time for the various vaccines and type of T-cell responses – that's a lot of basic science to fill in. The third and maybe biggest concern is with the likelihood that this vaccine will be distributed in a distinctly inequitable fashion. At risk vulnerable populations should get it first, but if we don't have really adequate trials to ensure safety that's lining them up to be guinea pigs. There's so much pressure on the various leaders to cross the line first here I just worry about the potential for highly motivated shortcuts that could have some disastrous results. And if a vaccine proved to be either ineffective or dangerous or both think of what kind of fuel that's going to pour on the fire of anti-vaccine conspiracy theories and the like. Could set back the cause of Public Health and specifically covid-19 Public Health badly.