Diablo produces electricity 24/7/365. Will have to have a lot of grid storage to make up for that
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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
- Start date
No zero emission nuclear plant should ever be allowed to close until we've closed each and every last carbon dioxide emitting coal and fossil gas power plant.
Grid development is well on track to cover Diablo and then some.
Many thoughts here covered in other threads by others and economics a big part of things. I've contributed more than my fair share of thread topic drift here, so I'll try to defer.
Well on track? I don't see much evidence of that. Sure would like to see it though
Again, best to discuss in relevant threads over in the subform:
Energy, Environment, and Policy
Many examples, here is one:
The Edwards Sanborn Solar-plus-Storage facility in Kern County will total 755MW of solar PV alongside the battery energy storage when the second phase comes online over Q3 and Q4 2022 and Q3 2023. It combines both stand-alone battery storage and batteries which charge from the PV.
The first phase came online late last year, as reported by Energy-Storage.news, meaning 345 MW of PV and 1,505 MWh are already operational. The second phase will add 410MW of nameplate solar PV (358MW at the point of interconnection) and 1,786 MWh of battery storage.
The solar PV is expected to come online in Q4 2022 and the battery storage should be fully operational in Q3 2023.
Terra-Gen closes US$1 billion financing for second phase of world's largest solar-plus-storage project
So I took a look at the morning of January 26, 2021, when it nearly reached freezing at the San Jose Airport and almost certainly went below freezing where I am. CAISO supply for that morning shows around 2200 megawatts of nuclear, 5000 megawatts of renewables prior to the sun coming up, and 7000 megawatts of natural gas, ramping up to around 10000 megawatts around 7 am before solar started kicking in. There were also around 7000 megawatts of imports. The previous evening, natural gas was almost 11000 megawatts, the largest single source of energy, with imports at 9000 megawatts. Renewables were around 5000 megawatts. So on cold nights, there's no way we're getting that mix of power, and any incremental usage likely comes from natural gas peaker plants. If not, I can always adjust the thermostat to let the heat pump run at lower and lower temperatures if it is also cheaper to do so.Agree, you might be able to take advantage of current and future price arbitrage with a dual fuel system if economics are the primary driver and continue to pencil out.
NG historically has been cheap for many years. But with current and future forecast LNG prices/demand and US LNG exports increasing to meet that demand, that will likely squeeze US NG prices a lot over the next few years and the utilities will pass that on to us.
We were concerned about that possibility but in our case (PG&E) + home solar PV that proved to be far from the case:
PG&E 2021 electric power mix
....
Hope you don't mind; fascinating topic but trying not to derail this thread; I responded in this thread:
Natural Gas vs Heat pumps for heating
Smelled like political/policy/heated turn imminent. And just in time125 pages of meandering and you're concerned about derailing it
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't think that necessarily makes sense, especially in reference to NG plants. Nuclear plants tend to be great baseload plants, but they are no replacement for NG peaker plants. I think we'll need NG peaker plants around for a long while even with all Nuclear plants shut down.
While that's true now, if the emphasis is on storage for renewables, and we have enough storage, all you have to do is set the nuclear plant to produce the average amount of power needed and then use the storage as a peaker plant, if the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.
The amount of storage required to cover the current 14,000/MW of commercial solar, and who knows how much rooftop solar that is not generating for 13-17 hours each night will be staggering.
California already has over 2.4 GW of pumped storage capacity in just two projects: Castaic Power Plant - Wikipedia, Helms Pumped Storage Plant - Wikipedia. Batteries are great for quick response, but other technologies are capable of scaling more easily to really large numbers.
It only takes about 4-7 years to construct a pumped storage plant. I do not know of any in California that have begun construction. Eagle Crest was licensed in 2014 for 1300/MW but has yet to start contstruction. Apparently scaling even for pumped storage is an issue.
I highly recommend this 30 minute podcast which will give you more reasons to hate SCE, PGE, and SDGE:
"Why do studies like these come to the wrong conclusion? For the simple reason that they ignore distributed generation (DG) solar and storage. Solar on the roofs of homes and businesses — especially when coupled with storage — provides less expensive, more reliable and safer electricity. But these DG systems reduce utility profits. So direct and indirect utility-sponsored research almost never considers the superior benefits of DG energy systems.
EVs are great for the environment, but only cheaper to operate if you charge smartly. If you are planning to buy an EV you should definitely charge your car at home, ideally from rooftop solar under full retail net metering. As a reminder to California residents, get that solar system installed soon before the transition to Net Metering 3 next year.
For more details on costs associated with EV charging, please tune in to this week’s Energy Show."
"Why do studies like these come to the wrong conclusion? For the simple reason that they ignore distributed generation (DG) solar and storage. Solar on the roofs of homes and businesses — especially when coupled with storage — provides less expensive, more reliable and safer electricity. But these DG systems reduce utility profits. So direct and indirect utility-sponsored research almost never considers the superior benefits of DG energy systems.
EVs are great for the environment, but only cheaper to operate if you charge smartly. If you are planning to buy an EV you should definitely charge your car at home, ideally from rooftop solar under full retail net metering. As a reminder to California residents, get that solar system installed soon before the transition to Net Metering 3 next year.
For more details on costs associated with EV charging, please tune in to this week’s Energy Show."
The Energy Show: Gas Stations Are Cheaper Than Public EV Charging on Apple Podcasts
Show The Energy Show, Ep Gas Stations Are Cheaper Than Public EV Charging - Oct 4, 2022
podcasts.apple.com
I found a direct link in case that helps others. Have not listened yet…I highly recommend this 30 minute podcast which will give you more reasons to hate SCE, PGE, and SDGE:
"Why do studies like these come to the wrong conclusion? For the simple reason that they ignore distributed generation (DG) solar and storage. Solar on the roofs of homes and businesses — especially when coupled with storage — provides less expensive, more reliable and safer electricity. But these DG systems reduce utility profits. So direct and indirect utility-sponsored research almost never considers the superior benefits of DG energy systems.
EVs are great for the environment, but only cheaper to operate if you charge smartly. If you are planning to buy an EV you should definitely charge your car at home, ideally from rooftop solar under full retail net metering. As a reminder to California residents, get that solar system installed soon before the transition to Net Metering 3 next year.
For more details on costs associated with EV charging, please tune in to this week’s Energy Show."
The Energy Show: Gas Stations Are Cheaper Than Public EV Charging on Apple Podcasts
Show The Energy Show, Ep Gas Stations Are Cheaper Than Public EV Charging - Oct 4, 2022podcasts.apple.com
Keep in mind that this is produced (or maybe just sponsored) by a company that does solar and battery installation. Some of the assertions on the page I link to below do not ring true to me. I have not found charging at public chargers to be more expensive than filling a car with gasoline (at least in California).
Repeating that I have not yet listened to the podcast.
Gas Stations Are Cheaper Than Public EV Charging - Cinnamon Energy Systems %
Wondering what the cost of EV charging is? Tune into The Energy Show to get the facts about locations and costs of EV charging.
cinnamon.energy
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