Crazy process of getting quotes for NEMA 14-50

[eprosenx]

A GFCI is not required in an attached garage.

I don’t have my laptop in front of me, but go take a look at 2017 NEC Article 625. I think it is the last two terms on the article. It states that all EV charging receptacles must be be protected by GFCI.

This was added last minute to the code as an emergency change, so many (most?) electricians and inspectors don’t know it, however, it is in the code.

 

[adaptabl]

I don’t have my laptop in front of me, but go take a look at 2017 NEC Article 625. I think it is the last two terms on the article. It states that all EV charging receptacles must be be protected by GFCI.

This was added last minute to the code as an emergency change, so many (most?) electricians and inspectors don’t know it, however, it is in the code.

I am in Canada and it is not required in an attached garage here. It is required in an outside or in an unattached garage.

 

[Dmagyar]

I don’t have my laptop in front of me, but go take a look at 2017 NEC Article 625. I think it is the last two terms on the article. It states that all EV charging receptacles must be be protected by GFCI.

This was added last minute to the code as an emergency change, so many (most?) electricians and inspectors don’t know it, however, it is in the code.

Just looked, I can’t seem to find that requirement, help me out with the 625.??

 

[gambit48]

Just looked, I can’t seem to find that requirement, help me out with the 625.??

Dan, you get a Tesla?

I'm not sure if it's finalized, but look in here:
https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Proposed_TIA_1242_NFPA_70.pdf

 

[Dmagyar]

Yes, have a nice model 3 LR, EAP setting happily in the garage.

Dan, you get a Tesla?

I'm not sure if it's finalized, but look in here:
https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Proposed_TIA_1242_NFPA_70.pdf

 

[eprosenx]

Just looked, I can’t seem to find that requirement, help me out with the 625.??

625.54 I have heard that some folks don't have it in their code book. Since it was an emergency change that just slipped in under the wire (it was along with some other changes that added additional allowed plug types I think) I think some early editions of the 2017 code might not have had it?

 

[Teplitzkyart]

my NEMA w 50amp was about $450-500 in Denver. Hard to find anyone here. The building scene is insane and all contractors are busy.

 

[Dmagyar]

my NEMA w 50amp was about $450-500 in Denver. Hard to find anyone here. The building scene is insane and all contractors are busy.

So did you get the two pole 50 amp GFI breaker as part of your install?

 

[Dmagyar]

625.54 I have heard that some folks don't have it in their code book. Since it was an emergency change that just slipped in under the wire (it was along with some other changes that added additional allowed plug types I think) I think some early editions of the 2017 code might not have had it?

View attachment 343260

Just went to the NFPA site signed in (to view the 2017 NEC code) and the 2017 code definitely has the requirement for GFI protection on any charging circuit up to 50 amps, also a requirement for the connection to be covered by a while in use cover if that connection is in a wet area.

 

[eprosenx]

Just went to the NFPA site signed in (to view the 2017 NEC code) and the 2017 code definitely has the requirement for GFI protection on any charging circuit up to 50 amps, also a requirement for the connection to be covered by a while in use cover if that connection is in a wet area.

Yup!

But just to clarify: You *do not* need a GFCI breaker when you have a hardwired EVSE like a Wall Connector. You only need one for receptacles.

 

[Dmagyar]

Yup!

But just to clarify: You *do not* need a GFCI breaker when you have a hardwired EVSE like a Wall Connector. You only need one for receptacles.

I think though with a “hardwired” setup 625.43 requires a disconnecting means within sight per 110.25.

 

[eprosenx]

I think though with a “hardwired” setup 625.43 requires a disconnecting means within sight per 110.25.

We have talked about this one a lot here in the forums. Here are the code sections I find relevant:

So first off, any EVSE on a 60 amp or LOWER circuit that is on standard 120/240v residential service or 208v three phase commercial service DOES NOT have a disconnecting means requirement. This really only kicks in above 60 amps, OR on 277v connected Wall Connectors (which are not very common and Tesla backed off on recommending them since some of the Model S and X units are sensitive to the higher voltages and might stop charging if voltage drifts too high briefly).

From Article 100 (Definitions):

So if you read the definition above NOWHERE does it state how close the disconnecting means must be and NOWHERE does it say anything about being within line of sight.

I personally think needing an ugly and expensive disconnect switch right next to Wall Connectors is silly. These are basically maintenance free devices (unlike air conditioners which is what most commonly requires disconnects like this). So if someone does come out to replace a Wall Connector, I don't see it as much of a burden to have to go turn off power at the circuit breaker. About the only thing I could think of replacing in the unit without replacing the entire unit would be the contactor.

So with that being said, I do think it is a good idea to have a "lock off" device installed on the breaker unit *especially* if the breaker is out of sight of the unit (so nobody else goes and turns it on when you are working on it). My reading is that these breaker lock off devices installed in the feeding panel cover this code requirement.

Also note that in the event of someone getting electrocuted, etc... by an EVSE I am not sure the danger is much different between a 30a 240v breaker and a 70a 240v breaker... The voltage is still there... And both are more than enough current to kill you.

And for completeness, here is 110.25. Nothing really interesting here. Just that you need to be able to show up on site to work on the EVSE and shut off the device and shove your lock through the hole. The breaker clips I describe I believe cover this.

Note though that I think certain AHJ's have either added more stringent requirements, or they are mis-interpreting the code and they have asked folks for disconnects within line of sight.

 

[Mo City]

I had an 80-ft run from my breaker box. First estimate was $1,300 and I couldn't wait for the guy to leave. Next two estimates were both ~$2,500. I was pretty upset.

Ended up calling the first guy back (by accident, long story), he reduced down to $1,000 and did the job. Turns out he was a Tesla recommended installer.

 

[woodguyatl]

They're going to know you're lying if you say that. People don't put ovens in their garages. That is commonly known as an RV outlet for big mobile homes, and that would make sense if you want to have an outlet for one of those in your garage. I see that in my neighborhood frequently, where people bring their RV home onto the driveway to work on it or prep it for a trip, and then run a cord into their garage for it.


I think you've figured out the difference correctly. I've seen people compare what the build differences are, and it does have to do with how the spring tensioning is done to deal with a really large number of plugging cycles without having the metal strips in the slots get bent and lose their pressing force on the pins. But yes, for people's cases, where they leave the UMC plugged in most of the time and only remove it a few times a year, the cheap one should be just fine.

I chuckled because my grandmother always had a range in the garage so the house wouldn't get hot when she cooked. I have adopted the same practice (always super handy for big holidays) perhaps mostly out of tradition.

 

[Rocky_H]

I chuckled because my grandmother always had a range in the garage so the house wouldn't get hot when she cooked. I have adopted the same practice (always super handy for big holidays) perhaps mostly out of tradition.

Oooh, you're in Georgia. In some of the rest of the country it would be "Open the door to use that oven heat."

 

[tzchang]

In San Jose, CA, the permit itself alone is already costing $450-$550......

 

[pbd87]

I got quotes of $1200-1500 for a run of about 50 ft from the box, through either attic or crawl space. Another didn't want to do it without upgrading the whole box, which he ballparked at $4k, but I told him not to bother doing a full quote at that ballpark.

I'm renting the house, so I'm going to live with using the 10-30 in the garage, though I am going to have one of the electricians replace the outlet. It's old, and rusty looking in the outside, so I'll sleep better knowing it has new bits and an expert has looked it over inside to make sure nothing was done poorly inside the wall. Using it 5 hours a week with the dryer while I'm home and awake is one thing, using it with the car for much more time, at high current draw, while I'm asleep is another.

 

[DavidElg]

Using it 5 hours a week with the dryer while I'm home and awake is one thing, using it with the car for much more time, at high current draw, while I'm asleep is another.

Are you still planning on using the same outlet for the dryer and unplugging the car each time you need to use it? That will wear the outlet out pretty quickly, as those things aren't designed for frequent plugging and unplugging like a typical outlet is.

 

[pbd87]

Are you still planning on using the same outlet for the dryer and unplugging the car each time you need to use it? That will wear the outlet out pretty quickly, as those things aren't designed for frequent plugging and unplugging like a typical outlet is.

I'm leaning towards using the dryer buddy. If I don't use the dryer buddy, I will likely use a short extension, because the location of the plus is a pain to get to behind the washer and dryer. And, if I wear out a short extension cable, it's cheaper to replace than the outlet.

 

[DavidElg]

Dryer Buddy is a good option. I have one myself that I used with a 14-30 outlet the first couple of months I had my TM3. Only downside is they take a month or two to receive after ordering. I had ordered mine a full month before delivery and it came the day before I got my car. Eventually I found someone through a friend who installed a 14-50 for super cheap so I no longer need it. Considering there's only a 8 mi/hr difference in charging between a 30 amp and 50 amp, it doesn't really make sense to drop a ton of money for the 50 if you already have access to a 30. In my case, it's basically the difference between charging completing at 1 am or at 2 am.