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Devils advocating...from someone who shorted TSLA

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Thanks for posting your Excel Model.

Which leads to my next question: What percentage of Teslas sold are under the "lease" arrangement?

How about starting a poll directed at forum members who bought (or leased) a Model S in April 2013 or later? That should give us at least a ballpark number.

If you buy a Tesla and finance it through one of Tesla's bank partners is it automatically considered a lease? Or do you have the option to finance an outright purchase through Tesla?

I think the financing through Tesla's bank partners is considered a lease. True Cost of Ownership | Tesla Motors
 
Same guy Coconut. I've moved to my original hometown of Cape Girardeau Missouri. Today I do something very like Boardwatch, but it is a weekly two hour video, and it is about converting cars to electric drive. It's a lot of fun. We are having a convention in August -6th to 11 with a couple hundred electric car guys and maybe 40 cars. And my Model S is windowed right now for July 22 to August 5. All part of God's plan. And the best part is Realist bought it for me.

I currently drive a 2008 Cadillac Escalade Ext with a 76 kWh battery pack - 8000 lbs. We converted it over the past couple of years on the show. EVTV Motor Verks | Electric Car Conversion Videos

You would think all of our viewers would be car guys. But a lot are the same computer geeks from the 1990s, a little PO'd about the gasoline thing. And 45% Europe where the gasoine is $8 already. I fear we are one camel sneeze from the same problem.

Jack RIckard
 
But I actually found the answer to my question myself. The reason that Tesla is looking at negative EPS this quarter is due to the Revenue Recognition Principle associated with Lease Accounting. When you lease a Tesla, the company recognizes revenues over the period of the lease. So on a GAAP basis Tesla will not be profitable. That is why they are going to introduce "Adjusted" Earnings this quarter. Wall Street is not stupid and they understand the limitations of GAAP.

Which leads to my next question: What percentage of Teslas sold are under the "lease" arrangement?

If you buy a Tesla and finance it through one of Tesla's bank partners is it automatically considered a lease? Or do you have the option to finance an outright purchase through Tesla?

That's not accurate. Tesla has no true lease program with deferred revenue recognition like GM does. As far as Tesla accounting is concerned, the "lease" is a cash transaction. It's just something between the owner and the 2 supporting banks.

What they do have to account for is the buyback guarantee. We haven't seen the effect of that yet.
 
That's not accurate. Tesla has no true lease program with deferred revenue recognition like GM does. As far as Tesla accounting is concerned, the "lease" is a cash transaction. It's just something between the owner and the 2 supporting banks.

What they do have to account for is the buyback guarantee. We haven't seen the effect of that yet.

Tesla did indicate that lease accounting that they adopted for cars financed using the hybrid product will require special treatment. From the Q1 2013 letter:

"As mentioned above, we expect that our gross margin will continue to rise into the second half of the year to our target of 25%, assuming no contribution from ZEV credits. The lease accounting treatment for cars sold through our new financing plan will have no impact on our cash flows, and we expect to be roughly breakeven on cash flow from operations in Q2, despite launch costs in Europe and a huge increase in service centers, stores and Supercharger stations.


However, the deferred revenue recognition required by GAAP for lease accounting will lead to a net loss on paper in Q2. We plan to provide information so that investors can evaluate our results both with and without the impact of lease accounting, as we believe the actual effect on Tesla is positive."

During the Q1 call EM indicated that they expect about half of the cars financed using the hybrid product.
 
That's not accurate. Tesla has no true lease program with deferred revenue recognition like GM does. As far as Tesla accounting is concerned, the "lease" is a cash transaction. It's just something between the owner and the 2 supporting banks.

What they do have to account for is the buyback guarantee. We haven't seen the effect of that yet.


Sorry but you are wrong and the exact opposite of what you wrote is true:

GM recognizes revenue the moment they turn the car over to a dealership.

Tesla doesn't have dealerships so if they lease a $100,000 car they will not recognize $100,000 of revenue like GM would by simply delivering a car to a dealer (that hasn't even sold it yet).

The lack of dealerships means a lot tougher revenue recognition standards for Tesla.
 
Has anyone estimated yet what % of cars delivered in Q2 actually used the TM financing (i.e. "lease")? Maekuz asked this earlier as well...

Also, my understanding is that if third party leasing is used for a particular customer then TM gets to recognize the sale fully at time of delivery.
 
Realist:

Frankly there is nothing wrong with your thinking process. The series of well over a dozen bankruptcies of electric car companies makes your point that getting into the car business is hard work. I recognized kind of early on that the shorts would not have the deep knowledge to be able to differentiate Tesla from Azure Dynamics, Brightspeed, Phoenix, Aptera, Think, et al.

You do get in a little trouble with your engineering. The average US Houshold uses just over 900 kWh per month. I understand that this must sound horrendous to you guys in California, but here in the hinterlands it is not unusual to run air conditioning 24x7 from late May to late September. It never shuts down. This much higher use is what gets us much lower rates - 8.2 cents per kWh instead of California's 27.5 cents. The trucks and wires are amortized over more kWh here.

That's more like 30 kWh per day. You will struggle to find your Tesla in your monthly bill at all. Here in Missouri it will take test instruments. The vampire load is not the problem you think just as the charging efficiencies of the fast charge were not.

The car is an astoundingly good car. The guys at Motor Trend and Consumer Reports are just not dummies. You don't have to devine a spider in the car. It's been gone through. It's now about demand and production and growth.

Technically, there IS a little bit of a problem long term. The cells they use in the car are ultimately designed for consumer use. Flashlights. Cameras. RC toys. Smoke alarms. Thermostats. There really is no impetus to make them long lasting vis a vis cycle life.

They WERE rated at about 800 cycles. With the advent of the automotive application, they have simply REMOVED cycle life from the data sheets. Vague references to longer cycle life. Mumble, mumble.

But if you check the SEC filings, Tesla has already copped to a little problem in the 5-7 year range.

This goes to the problem people really have with electric cars - childhood experiences with flashlights and batteries. And they know the batteries are expensive.

What does this do to resale? Let's see, a four year old Tesla, with a battery good for five years???? Hmm..... And Elon has "guaranteed" resale values - a depreciation feel good.

But it remains a problem. And I cannot believe they are going to take the hit on this one. I was SURE he woudl announce it with the battery swap demo and he walked away from it hard.

Basically, the way out, is to introduce the $1 shave club for men, but for Teslas. Let's say you pay $200 per month and join the club. Now you can swap your battery anytime you like. Never or a couple of times per day.

Almost immediately, the batteries become Teslas and are divorced from the car. A better Better Place actually. The batteries WILL get better, particularly with regards to energy density which there IS a huge motivator to increase by Panasonic et al.

The Model S batteries are ridiculously modular. They can pull those blades, dump the old 18650's and plug in new ones in a New York minute, and you are down to inspecting threads in the mounting bolts. No battery warranty worries.

If Tesla upgrades their cells, you automatically get better ones in the swap. End of depreciation concerns. End of battery life issue. And a recurring revenue stream from 99% of Tesla owners who opt in for the program.

Over several years inevitably more range from the SAME car.

I was astounded he didn't announce all this at the perfect moment when he was standing in front of the battery swap. I can only assume he is holding it in reserve as an ax to chop off the heads of the shorts AGAIN.

Now lets 'talk about your range issue and the "freedom" of your car that precludes success forever for electric vehicles.

FIRST. It's all in your head. We LIKE having a car we can drive to the moon. Nobody drives to the moon. A very small percentage actually use their cars cross country. And for MOST of us, it is a 20 mile per day gig. Let me tell you a little secret. I have about nine different electric cars and have been driving electric for four years. I don't charge every night. In fact I charge a car about twice a week. And there are more people drive cars like me than drive them 100 miles a day or drive to California four times a year.

Your use of your car is more than likely VERY different from what you think it is. 14500 miles per year is 40 miles per day. If you drive 100,000 miles per year, an electric car is just not for you at this point. Welcome to the 1% club.

Beyond that, inronically, just about the time the American public is acculturated to what they REALLY use a car for 99.999% of the time, it won't be a factor anyway. It's chicken and egg like all disruptive technologies. When enough people have crossed the border and done the electric car thing, the fast charge station deployment will be such that they really can drive anywhere JUST as freely as they do now.

The batteries have been able to charge in 20 minutes all along. It was the power to charge them that has been the problem. For a big car, it takes a quarter million watt station. If we need them, we can build them.

ANd here is where electric diverges from all the other alternative fuel concepts. The infrastructure buildout is trivial. To put a fast charge station every 50 MILES across our ENTIRE Interstate Highway system is about 1150 charge stations. If they each cost a million dollars, and at that price we are talking solar panels, huge reserve battery arrays, and upscale convenience stores for Ho'Ho's and Ding Dong's and the famous Bloomberg Big Gulp, it's 1.1 BILLION. Add up all the sour money at Enerdel, Think, Azure Dynamics, A123 and Fisker. They could have ALREADY DONE IT. For what they squandered like drunken ho's and sailors.

Ok, no Ho'Ho's for you Californians. Picture alfalfa sprout pita pockets and vitamin water. But you get the picture.

Point is, just about the time the American public gets OVER the need to "have the freedom to drive anywhere" they'll be able to drive anywhere. The Supercharger network is a demonstration of that, and a brilliant one.

Jack Rickard
 
Has anyone estimated yet what % of cars delivered in Q2 actually used the TM financing (i.e. "lease")? Maekuz asked this earlier as well...

Also, my understanding is that if third party leasing is used for a particular customer then TM gets to recognize the sale fully at time of delivery.

In the end it will not matter how many cars are actually financed as a "lease", because Wall Street will be focusing on "adjusted" earnings. You would have to look at adjusted earnings in order to have an apples to apples comparison between Tesla and other car manufatucters. If you continue using GAAP then you are comparing apples to oranges and Tesla's Income Statement will look really ugly.
 
Realist:

Technically, there IS a little bit of a problem long term. The cells they use in the car are ultimately designed for consumer use. Flashlights. Cameras. RC toys. Smoke alarms. Thermostats. There really is no impetus to make them long lasting vis a vis cycle life.

They WERE rated at about 800 cycles. With the advent of the automotive application, they have simply REMOVED cycle life from the data sheets. Vague references to longer cycle life. Mumble, mumble.

But if you check the SEC filings, Tesla has already copped to a little problem in the 5-7 year range.

This goes to the problem people really have with electric cars - childhood experiences with flashlights and batteries. And they know the batteries are expensive.

Sorry, but this is totally wrong. The 800 cycles you were refering to is for non-managed application in consumer devices. The major factor in battery aging is temperature, particularly when battery charged/discharged. The Tesla MS batteries have state of the art software based proprietory temperature control and charging current control. The battery also is not discharged fully as with the consumer applications. Lower Depth of Discharge (DOD) for great majority of MS daily usage yields lower battery stress and improved longevity. Alltogether the battery in MS will exceed 2,000 to 3,000 cycles with less than 20% capacity degradation. Conservatively assuming 200 miles range this results in 400,000 to 600,000 miles. MS has essentially a lifetime battery.
 
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Jack Rickard just became my favorite contributor here (sorry, Curt).


However.....

WHAT am I supposed to make of this:
You don't have to devine a spider in the car.
? Divine? De-vein? In either case, huh?

Irrespective of that, I like a writer who thinks as I do -
 
How much less? I would have thought that they couldn't care less. Could care less - YouTube

Curt - How do you have time or recall to pull that together???

I don't know what investors/analysts could or couldn't care less about - regardless, I think Q2 earnings is a pivot point for TSLA (not Tesla) as I am closer to Sal Demir's estimates of $.98 for 2013 and $5.29 for 2014 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/1532842-tesla-motors-full-analysis-2-0) than to the existing analyst consensus estimates of $-.08 EPS in 2013 and $.86 estimates for 2014. If Tesla is making 6000 cars/quarter the last 2 quarters of 2013 at 20-25% margin/car non-ZEV, that is about $125 - 150 million/quarter - operating expenses = How do they lose $.08 this year?

If the Q2 numbers and guidance require analysts to reconsider their estimates - if you project the stock value on forward EPS and that EPS is anywhere near $4-5.00 for 2014 (with 25% margins and ZEV) - then the forward P/E is about 25 at $125/share. I think there are many individual and institutional investors that are more than willing to give them a 50-100 multiple going forward. I think Q2 earnings could be even more fun/volatile than Q1.
 
WHAT am I supposed to make of this: ? Divine? De-vein? In either case, huh?

I'm reading it as Divine;

to discover or declare (something obscure or in the future) by divination; prophesy.

or

to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.

When paired with the spider, to mean that you don't need to look for something that the journalist haven't already discovered.

He could have meant de-vine a spider in the car, but that seems like an unnecessary thing to say. I rarely de-vine spiders in my car.



 
The 800 cycles you were refering to is for non-managed application in consumer devices. The major factor in battery aging is temperature, particularly when battery charged/discharged. The Tesla MS batteries have state of the art software based proprietory temperature control and charging current control. The battery also is not discharged fully as with the consumer applications. Lower Depth of Discharge (DOD) for great majority of MS daily usage yields lower battery stress and improved longevity. Alltogether the battery in MS will exceed 2,000 to 3,000 cycles with less than 20% capacity degradation. Conservatively assuming 200 miles range this results in 400,000 to 600,000 miles. MS has essentially a lifetime battery.

Could you please cite this fact. I've read it before but can't find anything from Tesla confirming 2-3000 cycles.
 
Over in the EU deliveries thread, there are people in Europe who've been told their cars are in transit.

Looks like they're in transit as of today. I'm thinking the VIN sequence disruption (in the high 14xxx) was the EU cars being started and then being set aside and held for EU spec finalization. If they retooled the factory last week while the workers were off, maybe the first couple days of this week were spent on finishing them off and now they are starting to ship them out today.
 
Looks like they're in transit as of today. I'm thinking the VIN sequence disruption (in the high 14xxx) was the EU cars being started and then being set aside and held for EU spec finalization. If they retooled the factory last week while the workers were off, maybe the first couple days of this week were spent on finishing them off and now they are starting to ship them out today.

If they started on some EU cars in Q2 then that might add to Q2 expenses a bit and could impact earnings somewhat. Not sure though because there hasn't been any clear indication otherwise that EU cars were started on in Q2.
 
If they started on some EU cars in Q2 then that might add to Q2 expenses a bit and could impact earnings somewhat. Not sure though because there hasn't been any clear indication otherwise that EU cars were started on in Q2.

If it's true that they're in transit already and that the factory wasn't in operation last week, they must have started on them in Q2 unless they're completing cars start to finish in 2 days (which I guess actually might be possible).
 
Regarding track perfomance: I hope do drive a Model S soon and I really cannot wait to see how it perfoms on the Autobahn at high speed.

Don't forget that Tesla has a speed-limiter on the demo cars.....

- - - Updated - - -

AND: Was Realist the same guy that started the thread on the car dealerships? I didn't think that guy was from Germany? Was it the same guy under a different name?

Different guy, different name. You were thinking of this one.

[/Off Topic]
 
I'm curious, of the shorters on the thread, if they have realized gains or losses based on the past 6 months or a given timeframe in TSLA? My assumption is that with key trades, due to volatility you could still make money even on the back of a prosperous stock like TSLA. I'd be willing to accept that a shorter could base their reasoning to short on volatility, but not on the merits of overall or even near future expectations of performance. If there is timely information to contrary I'd believe we'd all like to have that conversation. More of the same subjectiveness is of little interest due to the given track record of performance.