Disappointed with the D unveiling

[redi]

My first post, so please forgive it I screw up any of the forum conventions.

As someone who has been lurking for two years waiting for the long-rumored AWD announcement, I am a little surprised people have been so shocked about the safety features and the dual drive. I'm just your average fan, and it was pretty obvious to me that the development of the X would bring a lot of new features to the S, particularly for safety issues that are more pertinent to the SUV buyer.

That said, I completely understand where the September buyers are coming from. What happened to them, quite frankly, sucks.

But here's the thing -- if you're going to complain about what Tesla did, you have to suggest an alternative way for Tesla to launch major upgrades to the product line without taking a hit on new orders. As people here have posted out, if Tesla makes an announcement that BIG THINGS are coming, they might as well shut the factories down until the new innovations are ready.

Plus, even if you could figure that out, you're left with an unsolvable dilemma -- someone is ALWAYS going to be last. Regardless of when the announcement comes, there's going to be somebody who just got delivery of the "now-outdated" model. Always. And they're going to be just as ticked off as the September buyers are.

I will probably be blasted for the solution suggested would be that Tesla adjust its approach to act a bit like a big domestic car company instead of constantly innovating the hardware/software but...

The only way I can see the that would make the no-surprises buying pool happy would be to slot into a model year release concept. All the "innovate now, innovate fast" folks would hate that and so would Tesla Motors since they would probably have to take a hit in sales by doing so (along with a hit in stock price).

With many of the other domestic brands, everyone knows when the new model years arrive, and what the feature set will be, along with the new prices.

As the old model year comes to a close, the prices start to slip and the units dwindle off. Last year models sit around for a bit for even a more discounted price and get snapped up by the discount buyers that won't bite otherwise.

Buyer's win mostly. Tesla (who at this point in their history can't make enough cars quickly enough anyway) loses.

So this will never happen.

 

[Krugerrand]

-- someone is ALWAYS going to be last. Regardless of when the announcement comes, there's going to be somebody who just got delivery of the "now-outdated" model. Always. And they're going to be just as ticked off as the September buyers are.

But the cars are not outdated. They work perfectly fine. All owners receive warranty and can get their cars maintained. This is not a situation where the car suddenly stops working or being technically supported. And there are plenty of people who don't need or want AWD or driver assist features. There is a large enough market out there for those who want to upgrade.

- - - Updated - - -

No, what happened to the September buyers is that they got exactly what they ordered, for exactly the price they agreed to pay. That doesn't suck, that's actually really good. The fact that someone else got a little bit extra does not in any way diminish what they got, and they have zero right to complain.

These people are not complaining because something bad happened to them, because it didn't. They are complaining that something good happened to someone else. This is never a valid complaint, ever. This is whining that we expect from toddlers, adults are supposed to be more enlightened than this.

I say it again. Nothing bad happened to you. Something good happened to someone else. This is completely different. You should be happy for the others instead of being miserable for yourself. Jealously of this level is quite unbecoming, and following any of your suggestions, or claiming that anything bad had happened would make society a worse place rather than a better one.

*Standing 'O'*

 

[mdemetri]

I agree with your assessment. The rollout of the safety sensors was handled much in the same manner as the A/B battery implementation. Those who took delivery at the same time got A batteries, some got B batteries, and nobody was told that A batteries couldn't accept more than 90 kW while the B and later batteries could go to 120 kW or potentially higher. Owners were not informed, not given a choice. It was a lottery. Some got the newer part, others did not, even though they ordered at the same time. It was all based upon delivery date.

Tesla very well could have, and should have, delayed inclusion of autopilot sensors for a couple of weeks until this announcement. I feel for those who did not receive the sensors while those who took delivery earlier did get them, all because of the build date of their car which is something totally out of the customer's control. Information is power, and Tesla should have communicated these changes if they were unwilling to hold the new features until an announcement was made. What did Tesla think, that nobody would notice these new sensors?

I do not have a complaint because I've been driving my car since August 2013. But if I was on the cusp of this kind of change, and someone who got their car at the same time or earlier than I did with sensors and I did not, I would not be happy. Furthermore, when customers asked about the sensors some were told that it was due to EU requirements - which we now know was not the real reason. In some circles that's called a lie. That is not how a company like Tesla should handle a rollout. It's disrespectful to its customers and hurts its reputation.

This is the 2nd time now that Tesla has done something like this, as noted previously with the A/B battery switchover. There were so many complaints about that, but apparently the concerns of owners has fallen upon deaf ears because Tesla has again repeated the same set of circumstances that is upsetting owners.

The analogy to the A/B battery gate is not quite the same. The difference is that Tesla announced 120kw charging as if it would be applicable to all cars and to date, differences in A/B/D batteries have not been officially explained or defined by Tesla. This is not the case with autopilot. Yes some got AP without ordering it, while others did not. However, the latter got exactly what they paid for. I believe this was the same argument you made about batterygate.

 

[v12 to 12v]

And there are plenty of people who don't need or want AWD or driver assist features.

Dual Drive is tempting. But, I noticed that you have to get the entire Tech Package including Autopilot in order to get the previous Tech Package options. I like the auto-present door handles, the electric hatch opening, the GPS and other basic tech options. It would be nice if there was a basic Tech Package option without the new Autopilot or the folding mirrors bundled in.

 

[Krugerrand]

It would be nice if there was a basic Tech Package option without the new Autopilot or the folding mirrors bundled in.

An interesting idea that might be worth shooting to Tesla.

 

[breser]

Point of clarification: I mean emailing ownership, talking to the manager, etc. rather than a cookie cutter form.

That cookie cutter form is seriously paid attention to at Tesla. If you put poor ratings on it you will get a call back from them. There are at least several cases I've seen on this forum of people doing so and getting a call to discuss what happened. In my case I gave a low rating on the purchase experience and wrote a fairly lengthy comment. The next week I had a call from the Northwest Delivery Manager to discuss things.

 

[Flyshacker]

I have a question for anyone who feels disappointed: Would your problem be solved if you had LEASED rather than BOUGHT your Model S? I ask because I don't know about auto leasing, particularly Tesla auto leasing. But it seems to me that you wouldn't feel disappointed if you knew you would return your car soon anyway and get the latest model. With the technology of autos (well, Tesla autos anyway) advancing as rapidly as smart phones and tablet computers, which we turnover in 2 or 3 years routinely, perhaps we are entering a new age of auto leasing when it makes more sense to stay current than to own. What do you think?

I have been on the fence about buying a Model S for over a year. This week's announcement finally pushed me over! But after decades of car ownership I'm seriously wondering now if LEASING is the way to go with Tesla cars.

No, what happened to the September buyers is that they got exactly what they ordered, for exactly the price they agreed to pay. That doesn't suck, that's actually really good. The fact that someone else got a little bit extra does not in any way diminish what they got, and they have zero right to complain.

These people are not complaining because something bad happened to them, because it didn't. They are complaining that something good happened to someone else. This is never a valid complaint, ever. This is whining that we expect from toddlers, adults are supposed to be more enlightened than this.

I say it again. Nothing bad happened to you. Something good happened to someone else. This is completely different. You should be happy for the others instead of being miserable for yourself. Jealously of this level is quite unbecoming, and following any of your suggestions, or claiming that anything bad had happened would make society a worse place rather than a better one.

The above comment is brilliant! I echo Krugerrand's STANDING-O!

 

[Canuck]

Another STANDING-O here for green1's comment. Great logical argument plus a moral and ethical lesson to boot!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone who isn't in this situation of missing this stuff by such a narrow margin can possibly understand how it feels to be in the situation.

Of course they can. It is called empathy. The problem is, not all people are capable of it - or are too enamored by the brand they are fans of that they direct their empathy at the company instead.

It is one thing to agree or disagree with Tesla's actions. Like I said, especially in Europe, similar things happen with most factory orders (no clear model-year targets when ordering, so it is a game of luck). It is a difficult question how to handle transitions like this and surely there are a lot of valid opinions in many directions on how to stay the course or improve. But in any case it shouldn't be hard to sympathize with whomever gets the short end of the stick in a dilemma like this.

Really, people. Empathy isn't hard. Let affected people vent a little, offer a few words of encouragement or some helpful suggestions to fix or to cope, and you'll see a lot better response than from "quit crying, suck it up, and enjoy your car". Since when has the latter type of suggestion helped anyone.

Have a little heart.

 

[iKhalid]

Of course they can. It is called empathy. The problem is, not all people are capable of it - or are too enamored by the brand they are fans of that they direct their empathy at the company instead.

It is one thing to agree or disagree with Tesla's actions. Like I said, especially in Europe, similar things happen with most factory orders (no clear model-year targets when ordering, so it is a game of luck). It is a difficult question how to handle transitions like this and surely there are a lot of valid opinions in many directions on how to stay the course or improve. But in any case it shouldn't be hard to sympathize with whomever gets the short end of the stick in a dilemma like this.

Really, people. Empathy isn't hard. Let affected people vent a little, offer a few words of encouragement or some helpful suggestions to fix or to cope, and you'll see a lot better response than from "quit crying, suck it up, and enjoy your car". Since when has the latter type of suggestion helped anyone.

Have a little heart.

+100000

 

[Krugerrand]

With the technology of autos (well, Tesla autos anyway) advancing as rapidly as smart phones and tablet computers, which we turnover in 2 or 3 years routinely, perhaps we are entering a new age of auto leasing when it makes more sense to stay current than to own. What do you think?

You might be onto something, at least for people who want to own the latest and greatest or who like to turn their cars over after only a couple/few years. For others who typically buy a car and use it until the doors fall off *waves hand in the air as if swatting away a swarm of gnats* it makes no difference what Tesla puts out tomorrow.

 

[breser]

I have a question for anyone who feels disappointed: Would your problem be solved if you had LEASED rather than BOUGHT your Model S? I ask because I don't know about auto leasing, particularly Tesla auto leasing. But it seems to me that you wouldn't feel disappointed if you knew you would return your car soon anyway and get the latest model. With the technology of autos (well, Tesla autos anyway) advancing as rapidly as smart phones and tablet computers, which we turnover in 2 or 3 years routinely, perhaps we are entering a new age of auto leasing when it makes more sense to stay current than to own. What do you think?

As I've already said, if I was planning to replace in 2-3 years (as would be the case with a lease) then no I wouldn't care that much. For what it's worth, leasing was not an option for me. Tesla only had business leases when I took delivery. Personal leasing showed up about a week after I took delivery. I might have considered leasing if it was an option at the time but it wasn't.

Edit: For what it's worth, I don't think the Tesla lease is a good deal. You lose out on the $7,500 tax credit and Tesla does adjust for that in their leasing price (they don't report a profit so don't get it either). It's probably a better deal to take their financing with the buy back guarantee. Which I believe comes out better from math someone else posted earlier, I didn't bother to do that either, mostly because I planned to keep the car for a long time.

 

[Flyshacker]

You might be onto something, at least for people who want to own the latest and greatest or who like to turn their cars over after only a couple/few years. For others who typically buy a car and use it until the doors fall off *waves hand in the air as if swatting away a swarm of gnats* it makes no difference what Tesla puts out tomorrow.

If it makes no difference to you what Tesla puts out tomorrow, then I assume you are not among the disappointed. But for anyone who insists on owning cutting edge technology, he or she better be prepared to upgrade almost continually. That's why I figured the LEASE is the answer, but the numbers DO have to pan out. I'm going to investigate the practicality of leasing. Thanks for the responses to my question.

 

[William13]

I make a choice and stick with it. My wife could be replaced with a newer model but I was happy with my choice and will stick with her. Ditto the car.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

It's unavoidable that some people are going to be upset. A simple solution, in my opinion, is to not ship things before they are announced and before customers have the option to make a choice. Apple typically doesn't announce anything until the product is ready, or very close to ready. Either way, Apple makes it clear when new products with new features can be ordered. Customers are generally on the same page.

Shipping some cars with sensors and others without, then telling your service centers and delivery specialists to keep quiet unless specifically asked, feels shady. Tesla can and should do better. It all comes from the top, in my opinion. There is definitely a problem with Tesla's product rollout strategy.

I agree completely with this. The sensor suite hardware is a substantial change that will impact vehicle features (via software update) for years to come. I don't think that Tesla should make the purchasing process into a secret lottery. Taking decision power out of the hands of the customer is inevitably going to result in unhappy customers. That's just a business reality.

If you are an investor, you were probably looking for news about Model X. That moves the product roadmap forward. You are not looking for yet another ridiculously expensive Model S that a minority of owners are going to buy, and that does little to differentiate the product mix. P85D does not help Tesla get to its mass market, affordable car.

I posted about this in another thread, but the Dual Motor announcement does implicitly provide news about Model X, because it shows that the powertrain is ready. One major concern about Model X was whether Tesla could get AWD working, and the impact on efficiency. Thursday's announcement put those concerns to rest.

I think that the falcon-wing doors are the only big question mark (specifically how roof racks and the like will function).

 

[anticitizen13.7]

The fact that someone else got a little bit extra does not in any way diminish what they got, and they have zero right to complain.

Characterizing the sensor suite as "a little bit extra" is misleading, given that it allows for a significant number of future improvements via software update. As others have mentioned, this could also have future implications for insurance rates.

These people are not complaining because something bad happened to them, because it didn't. They are complaining that something good happened to someone else. This is never a valid complaint, ever. This is whining that we expect from toddlers, adults are supposed to be more enlightened than this.

Let me be clear: this is NOT about one customer resenting another customer. This is ENTIRELY about ***Tesla's*** relationship with customers.

If person A and person B pay the same $ for the same configuration, it's only fair that both A and B receive the same product for the price they paid.

Think about this scenario: person A and person B have substantially similar qualifications and abilities. Both A and B answer an ad for 2 employees to do the same job. Both are eventually hired at the same time for the same job to work at the company that placed the ad. The company secretly decides to pay B more $ for a random reason (B happened to be born male). A, a woman, finds out and is furious with the company.

Should A be ok with this? Just be happy and never mind that B made out better for a reason beyond A's control?

Now I don't think Tesla had any insidious motives like gender discrimination, but in both my hypothetical and the situation with Tesla, people were treated differently because of a factor outside their control. To expect people not to be upset about this is unreasonable. It's human nature.

 

[JohnQ]

Think about this scenario: person A and person B have substantially similar qualifications and abilities. Both A and B answer an ad for 2 employees to do the same job. Both are eventually hired at the same time for the same job to work at the company that placed the ad. The company secretly decides to pay B more $ for a random reason (B happened to be born male). A, a woman, finds out and is furious with the company.

Should A be ok with this? Just be happy and never mind that B made out better for a reason beyond A's control?

Now I don't think Tesla had any insidious motives like gender discrimination, but in both my hypothetical and the situation with Tesla, people were treated differently because of a factor outside their control. To expect people not to be upset about this is unreasonable. It's human nature.

I understand your point here but feel it's a poor example. Many companies hire people with substantially the same skills and qualifications into the same roles and pay them different amounts. And not because of discrimination. It's often because their previous salaries were different and they had to pay more to attract the more highly paid individual. Should we punish the better negotiator?

 

[woof]

But here's the thing -- if you're going to complain about what Tesla did, you have to suggest an alternative way for Tesla to launch major upgrades to the product line without taking a hit on new orders. As people here have posted out, if Tesla makes an announcement that BIG THINGS are coming, they might as well shut the factories down until the new innovations are ready.

Nice first post.

One way to prevent the "Osbourne" effect (aka shut down the factory until the new stuff is ready) is to announce the new stuff and immediately discount the current price. Those who want the new stuff will pay the higher price and wait. Those who are willing to forgo the new stuff get a deal. Anyone with an existing order is contacted and asked if they wish to wait or pay the lower price for what they already ordered.

And the key point (so that those who just took delivery at the original price don't get pissed):
Do what Apple does when they reduce the price of a product: give everyone who took delivery recently a refund. Apple picks 14 days, for Tesla I'd say 90 days is more appropriate.

Apple - Legal - Sales Policies - U.S. Retail Sales

Everyone is (relatively) happy: Tesla keeps orders, those who want the new stuff wait for it, those who don't want it get a deal, and those who didn't get "a choice in the matter" get enough cash to ease their pain.

 

[green1]

If person A and person B pay the same $ for the same configuration, it's only fair that both A and B receive the same product for the price they paid.

It's also only fair that nothing in any store ever go on sale in case someone bought it the day before. If no promotional offers are ever given in case someone else didn't get it, if no lottery winner is ever picked because other people didn't win.

It's also bad for society to prevent anyone from ever gaining a benefit just because someone previously didn't also get that same benefit.

This is jealousy at it's worst. There's no upside to person A from stopping person B from getting the extra, and yet that's exactly what everyone is advocating for. Back to my toddler example, people would rather they get one cookie and the other person get none, than that they get 2 cookies and the other person gets 3, even though both people are better off in the second example.

Enjoy your 2 cookies, and don't be upset that someone else has 3, the alternative is that both of you have none.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I understand your point here but feel it's a poor example. Many companies hire people with substantially the same skills and qualifications into the same roles and pay them different amounts. And not because of discrimination. It's often because their previous salaries were different and they had to pay more to attract the more highly paid individual. Should we punish the better negotiator?

My hypothetical certainly does not take into account the messy variety of job applicants in the real world. Point taken on the previous salaries as reason for pay differences, but I don't think that makes a difference in how people ultimately feel about a pay disparity.

The lower paid employee is going to be upset if they are essentially the same in productivity as the higher paid one. If both people produce 180k worth of output, and one person is paid 60k while the other is paid 70k, I can't see how the lower paid person wouldn't be upset.

Likewise, if 2 people paid 95k for the same config Model S, but one person got 5k in extra sensors, the person who didn't get sensors is going to be mad.

Money as a medium of exchange is essentially a proxy for labor. That's why I think my analogy explains negative customer reaction to the sensor situation.

Negotiations also imply some degree of control. Tesla prices can't be negotiated. The person who didn't get the sensor suite had no choice and no chance to change the outcome.