Elon Confirms S & X Are Chopped Liver

[john85775]

Anyways, just curious how the doors aren't working out for you.

They are not the best for teenagers. Besides being a bit slow, they can be a bit flashy for high school drop offs/pick ups. We've had our lanky teens bump their heads on the edges of them several times in egress/ingress.

Also with darker color paint trims, on hot days it's a known issue that it "sees" a phantom object so they don't open even though there's nothing obstructing. Had them serviced to redo the sensor adhesive more than once. Like the window squeaking, it fixes for a few weeks then returns. Really annoying. I have video in case anyone doesn't believe - that loud BEEP when they won't open all the way for no reason is beyond embarrassing and ends up having the opposite effect the FWDs are supposed to have.

For us the novelty wore off pretty fast.

Outside of that, sure. They're great....

 

[CarlK]

Fascinating. I was unaware that the EV drivetrain, battery, lar ge windshield, MCU, software, autopilot, and all other features were housed inside of the falcon wing doors. What an educational argument!

Are you always this boring?

I did have another follow up dream that they took "EV drivetrain, battery, lar ge windshield, MCU, software, autopilot, " away from my X too. Happy now?

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

That'll be the Model Y

General aesthetics aside, the only advantage a Model S has over Model 3 is the storage space. When Y comes along, that advantage is lost. Tesla already know that Y will eat into 3 sales, trunks/boots are not desired, and in many countries having a trunk/boot instead of the hatch version will cause greater depreciation. The problem is, if S is not elevated with some sort of tangible refresh (tangible meaning something that a non-Tesla owner would be able to see), then I'm struggling to see any reason not to buy a Performance Y over an S, assuming Audi, Porsche et al haven't upped their game by then.

Maybe compared to your 2013 MS, but the current Model S being offered has a lot more than a size difference advantage. Even my old S has some noticeable advantages over the M3. It has much quieter and smoother ride for example, the powered hatch, and HEPA filter. I also prefer the aesthetics of the all black interior of the MS. I don’t like the look of the two tone MS dashes though. The current 370 mile range MS looks like an awesome beast. Way better than an M3 in my opinion.

 

[Xminus6]

I get different strokes for different folks; but The falcon wing doors on Model X was one of the major reasons I got the car in 2017. Been loving them especially since we have kids in car seats. I guess objectively there were some teething pains at the beginning with the paint rubbing around the door sill; but that's been resolved with the door bumper redesign at this point. The biggest downside is the attention they draw when you open them! I don't mind explaining usually; but sometimes you just want to fly under the radar. Other than that; no issues with them. I wouldn't want to give them up (unless there is a good sliding door design perhaps? Thats the only way they might be better as they can get slightly in the way when opening; a sliding design might work better?.)

Anyways, just curious how the doors aren't working out for you.

When our kids were in car seats I agreed with you. But now that my kids are more independently getting into and out of the car I find the FWD to be a nuisance. They still don't know when and how to open all the time. When I'm in tight parking spaces or in underground parking garages the doors will only open partially even if there's space for them to open fully. The one that baffles me is when they open in close proximity mode, clear the object to the side and then stop once they're past the obstacle so the pointy part is right at my face level. I also have to park further away from the curb than other folks during drop-off and pick-up at my kids school because I don't want to clock a kid or teacher with the door.

I love how unique they are and if they worked PERFECTLY then I would like them a lot more. I really think they should open in close proximity mode all of the time. I'm not sure why the default is for it to take up more horizontal space than necessary.

 

[pete8314]

Maybe compared to your 2013 MS, but the current Model S being offered has a lot more than a size difference advantage. Even my old S has some noticeable advantages over the M3. It has much quieter and smoother ride for example, the powered hatch, and HEPA filter. I also prefer the aesthetics of the all black interior of the MS. I don’t like the look of the two tone MS dashes though. The current 370 mile range MS looks like an awesome beast. Way better than an M3 in my opinion.

Mine's a 2016 Model S, but I take your point. The Y will have a powered hatch, but ignoring the much-discussed noise issue with the suspension, I don't find our 3 any noisier than the S. The extra range is nice, and I think the Raven revisions have made the current-gen S a very well sorted vehicle, but I still think it doesn't solve the issue of the S starting to look stale to the outsider, when comparing to some of the upcoming competitors.

 

[jerry33]

but I still think it doesn't solve the issue of the S starting to look stale to the outsider, when comparing to some of the upcoming competitors.

If you are purchasing for looks alone and don't drive much, this is could be true in some cases. However, competitors have problems with range, performance, service*, and price. Because I get many complements on how my early 2013 looks at events where I show it, I don't believe most people think the design is stale (other than perhaps automotive reviewers in their quest for bad things to say about Tesla).

*Trying to get service is very bad. Typically a dealer will have one and only one technician trained to service their EVs. Even if you make an appointment, there's no guarantee that the technician will be working that day (and they don't tell you prior to showing up). Also, the technician may have just quit. (These have happened to me on the Leaf, I expect it to be worse for VW, Audi, and BMW).

 

[tomas]

If you are purchasing for looks alone and don't drive much, this is could be true in some cases. However, competitors have problems with range, performance, service*, and price. Because I get many complements on how my early 2013 looks at events where I show it, I don't believe most people think the design is stale (other than perhaps automotive reviewers in their quest for bad things to say about Tesla).

*Trying to get service is very bad. Typically a dealer will have one and only one technician trained to service their EVs. Even if you make an appointment, there's no guarantee that the technician will be working that day (and they don't tell you prior to showing up). Also, the technician may have just quit. (These have happened to me on the Leaf, I expect it to be worse for VW, Audi, and BMW).

Definitely true of VW. In fact, only a small % of dealers have a certified mechanic at all.

 

[john85775]

We’ve owned multiple plug ins from Chevy, Nissan, Ford, Mercedes and Tesla over the past 10 years. We have also moved between a couple of localities in that time so got a fairly good sampling of dealer experiences.

Of the mainstream dealers, Chevy seems to have done absolute best job of staffing and training its service team. Parts are readily available and the power trains have been bulletproof.

Ford was next best, but tended to have a more limited staff than Chevy that could work on the electrified powertrain and relying heavily on dealer support.

Nissan is mixed - if the dealer sells a lot of Leafs, you’re fine. Outside of that, it’s a mess. Again, a lot of reliance on dealer support.

Mercedes is the absolute worst. Very inexperienced, extended periods of time wondering what is going on with the car, etc. It will be interesting how they roll out the EQ line.

Tesla is the inverse of most mainstream dealers (who are largely ignorant but have a slow / steady dealer support); Tesla service centers tend to be staffed with very helpful and knowledgeable people. I exchange text messages with my mobile tech from time to time and he is readily available. The issue tends to be more with inconsistent messaging, shifting direction and parts availability from Tesla corporate.

 

[pete8314]

Agree on the service. Tesla has a few issues for sure, but lack of skill and innovation is not one of them. I have to buy a car for one of our kids this week (budget not sufficient for an EV), and I'm dreading going into a dealer, I'm SO over all the BS of the traditional buying and service process.

But, service is post-sales; Audi & co make beautiful marketing, and know how to tap their customers and sell them cars. The swing in the US seems slower, but I watch a lot of UK TV, and virtually every automotive TV ad is for EV's, either VW, Audi or Kia/Hyundai (none of the VW models exist, yet - they're advertising a 2020 release). From a marketing perspective, they're laying foundations, and that's where Tesla have a weakness. All the other auto makers conveniently gloss over things like not having a charging infrastructure, range, OTA updates etc etc, but they dazzle and obfuscate with other things; design (conceptual for most of them) being one of them. This is where, I think, Tesla needs to do a better job at getting the message out, especially if there's not going to be a headline-grabbing refresh.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Mine's a 2016 Model S, but I take your point. The Y will have a powered hatch, but ignoring the much-discussed noise issue with the suspension, I don't find our 3 any noisier than the S. The extra range is nice, and I think the Raven revisions have made the current-gen S a very well sorted vehicle, but I still think it doesn't solve the issue of the S starting to look stale to the outsider, when comparing to some of the upcoming competitors.

It could just be the acoustics of the glass ceiling versus the solid metal Alcantara lined ceiling, but the higher noise level is very noticeable. The M3 motor also seems to make more noise. I drove my friends month old M3 last weekend. Great car, but still don’t get all the people saying it’s better than the S.

I wouldn’t buy an S for twice as much, but that’s just because I don’t like to spend money. I could sell my S for about the cost of a new 3, but not moved by the 3 enough to go to the effort. I do like the exterior of the three better than the MS, now that’s it's grown on me, but when every other car is an M3, I might get a little sick of it.

 

[DCGOO]

We’ve owned multiple plug ins from Chevy, Nissan, Ford, Mercedes and Tesla over the past 10 years. We have also moved between a couple of localities in that time so got a fairly good sampling of dealer experiences.

Of the mainstream dealers, Chevy seems to have done absolute best job of staffing and training its service team. Parts are readily available and the power trains have been bulletproof.

Ford was next best, but tended to have a more limited staff than Chevy that could work on the electrified powertrain and relying heavily on dealer support.

Nissan is mixed - if the dealer sells a lot of Leafs, you’re fine. Outside of that, it’s a mess. Again, a lot of reliance on dealer support.

Mercedes is the absolute worst. Very inexperienced, extended periods of time wondering what is going on with the car, etc. It will be interesting how they roll out the EQ line.

Tesla is the inverse of most mainstream dealers (who are largely ignorant but have a slow / steady dealer support); Tesla service centers tend to be staffed with very helpful and knowledgeable people. I exchange text messages with my mobile tech from time to time and he is readily available. The issue tends to be more with inconsistent messaging, shifting direction and parts availability from Tesla corporate.

If profit wasn't the primary motivator of traditional dealer service department, the situation would be much better. Tesla makes more money by NOT servicing your car than by over servicing. Toyota/Lexus would NEVER eliminate the scheduled maintenance, that is the income stream the dealer lives on. The opposite is true of Tesla. If Tesla never sees you, they are happier than clams.

 

[john85775]

The M3 motor also seems to make more noise. I drove my friends month old M3 last weekend. Great car, but still don’t get all the people saying it’s better than the S.

The reluctance motor is definitely more "present" with a high pitched whine vs. the AC induction motor on the old S/X. We replaced our MX with a Raven MX and we can hear that distinctive sound on the car.

So the noise is now there across the Tesla model range...

 

[john85775]

If profit wasn't the primary motivator of traditional dealer service department, the situation would be much better. Tesla makes more money by NOT servicing your car than by over servicing. Toyota/Lexus would NEVER eliminate the scheduled maintenance, that is the income stream the dealer lives on. The opposite is true of Tesla. If Tesla never sees you, they are happier than clams.

Great point. There simply isn't enough volume vs. the ICE cars to invest in a great service experience at a traditional dealer. Chevy rolled a ton of Volts and beefed up service to match. Mercedes barely moved any of their awful C350e/GL350e/S550e PHEVs -- just not enough volume -- so why invest?

 

[shinytop]

As a person nearing purchase of an X I would not mind the Falcon Wing Doors to be gone. I like the concept but from reading this forum they are far from trouble free such as water ingress, not opening fully consistently, or opening into objects.

I do, however, love the two screen cockpit as it is. I think it would be a definite downgrade to go to one horizontal screen. The 3's air vents sound like a step forward but not sure about an implementation in the X unless they went with one screen.

I would love a refresh of the six seater with the middle row having folding seats and armrests. As is I would probably go with seven seater to have the most cargo room and good enough A/C for hot and humid Florida.

 

[CarlK]

As a person nearing purchase of an X I would not mind the Falcon Wing Doors to be gone. I like the concept but from reading this forum they are far from trouble free such as water ingress, not opening fully consistently, or opening into objects.

I do, however, love the two screen cockpit as it is. I think it would be a definite downgrade to go to one horizontal screen. The 3's air vents sound like a step forward but not sure about an implementation in the X unless they went with one screen.

I would love a refresh of the six seater with the middle row having folding seats and armrests. As is I would probably go with seven seater to have the most cargo room and good enough A/C for hot and humid Florida.

People who like to talk about problems are usually those who have never owned the car. It sure is more complex than regular doors and does require some learning curve but in the end it does give much more troubles to real owners. Not any worse than those sliding doors I would say. You just need to be conscientious about the status since it is power operated.

 

[ohmman]

People who like to talk about problems are usually those who have never owned the car. It sure is more complex than regular doors and does require some learning curve but in the end it does give much more troubles to real owners. Not any worse than those sliding doors I would say. You just need to be conscientious about the status since it is power operated.

Are you suggesting I’m not a real owner?

 

[tomas]

Are you suggesting I’m not a real owner?

Non-cavemen. Sorry.

 

[ohmman]

Non-cavemen. Sorry.

The cave could explain why the doors can’t clear...

 

[tomas]

The cave could explain why the doors can’t clear...

Great disguise, Batman!

 

[Ofarlig]

I hope they do keep on improving the S and X, otherwise I don’t really know what I’d switch to at this point. Only had my car for 1-1.5 years no so theres most likely at least a year until I will switch cars but still, nothing electric I tried right now seems to be a fun switch.

I tried the new Raven S and the suspension makes a difference but it isn’t night and day, road noise is about the same on most roads to my S. Although after trying multiple cars it seems my S is one of the better built when it comes to noise leaking in.

Also tried the 3P a few times and it would be a hard switch for me I feel, it is very noisy inside compared to my S and I really dislike the white roof line and some material choices. I might go try a LR AWD with 18” now that you can get the P- with 18” and see if that fixes the noise issue. Theres still other issues ofc but the noise is a big one for me.