Elon: FSD Beta tweets

[AlanSubie4Life]

Absolutely PISSED OFF at this point at FSDb. I have had it off for the most part and only use it on highways where there is a straight-line and nothing to cause the car to do something stupid. So yesterday I go to my FSDb profile as I enter the on-ramp for a high-speed (75mph speed limit) toll road. I allow the car to do its' thing for the 20 miles or so on the toll road and it exits to a small highway, still 70mph speed limit, that has about a 1-mile stretch until it enters the city of Lindale. So far, so good, 20 miles of FSDb with no big issues. About 1/2 mile into the next highway drive I'm in the right lane, speed set at 75mph, when all of a sudden the car activates the right blinker and - without slowing - pulls into a fairly short, dedicated right turn lane that turns into a business. At the end of the turn lane is a drainage culvert, or a "bar ditch" as we say in Texas!

The car enters the turn lane and never slows down, I immediately hit the turn signal button to get a look to my left to see if a car is there and also look over my left shoulder (no response to activating the left turn signal). This all occurs as my hand is grabbing the yoke and my foot shifting to the brake. I see the blue line wavering left and right and then lock into a right turn into the business parking lot at the end of this dedicated turn lane. Remember, this is all taking place in a matter of 1-2 seconds so far. As soon as I see over my shoulder that the lane to my left is clear the car is attempting to make a 90 degree right turn at 75mph. I am able to yank the yoke left and tap the brake as the car is starting the right hand turn. The rear end of the car breaks loose and slides as I get the yoke steered into the right hand lane of the highway. I allow the speed to bleed off to get the rear tires behind me and continue on. My dog has been thrown around the back of the car, my wife banged her head and both are pissed at me for what the car has just done to US.

This whole event occurred in mere seconds. I see people justifying what FSDb does and I read the quotes daily about "...it's beta and you have to be prepared for anything..." and I just wonder if "anything" truly should include a 75mph attempt at a ridiculous, absolutely incalculable maneuver that was seconds and mere feet from a disastrous crash? And WHY can't I report this to Tesla in some way, shape or form? And PLEASE DEAR GOD don't say, "Just leave a voice memo after the Autopilot disconnect." Because that is the most ridiculous system anyone has come up with in a long time. If that worked, these things wouldn't be happening to me and many others almost daily.

Human reaction time is 0.3 seconds, when on your A game. Always be on your A game with FSDb.

Best to not use FSDb with other people or animals in the vehicle. It’s a highly experimental feature and is extremely well known to frequently do the wrong thing at the worst time. It is widely thought that it will be years before it is ready.

Save FSDb for personal entertainment, and if not ready to intervene in 0.3 seconds (frequently!!!), select an AP-only profile with minimal features, when using your means of conveyance with other sentient creatures.

 

[eli_]

Human reaction time is 0.3 seconds, when on your A game. Always be on your A game with FSDb.

Best to not use FSDb with other people or animals in the vehicle. It’s a highly experimental feature and is extremely well known to frequently do the wrong thing at the worst time. It is widely thought that it will be years before it is ready.

Save FSDb for personal entertainment, and if not ready to intervene in 0.3 seconds (frequently!!!), select an AP-only profile with minimal features, when using your means of conveyance with other sentient creatures.

I've considered FSDb on highway to be good enough to use with other passengers onboard. But 11.4.4 has this new behavior like @DWtsn mentioned above, where FSD is attracted to the sudden appearance of new righthand lanes on highways, even when they go off-route, like pull-off areas, trucking weigh stations, turn lanes, etc. I've always caught it early when it starts to do this, so I've only created some minor jerkyness and wife yelps, but I will be avoiding using this build any longer with passengers.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've considered FSDb on highway to be good enough to use with other passengers onboard. But 11.4.4 has this new behavior like @DWtsn mentioned above, where FSD is attracted to the sudden appearance of new righthand lanes on highways, even when they go off-route, like pull-off areas, trucking weigh stations, turn lanes, etc. I've always caught it early when it starts to do this, so I've only created some minor jerkyness and wife yelps, but I will be avoiding using this build any longer with passengers.

Yeah, quite likely; it is kind of at your own risk.

Due to the highly experimental nature of the program, regressions which are detrimental to human passenger comfort and (at a minimum) perceived safety can occur at any time.

 

[kabin]

I've considered FSDb on highway to be good enough to use with other passengers onboard. But 11.4.4 has this new behavior like @DWtsn mentioned above, where FSD is attracted to the sudden appearance of new righthand lanes on highways, even when they go off-route, like pull-off areas, trucking weigh stations, turn lanes, etc. I've always caught it early when it starts to do this, so I've only created some minor jerkyness and wife yelps, but I will be avoiding using this build any longer with passengers.

Maybe it's just an extension of what we see regularly on surface streets for the last couple of releases as there's been many reports of FSD attempting to turn into bus lanes etc. No doubt freeway speeds adds a another level of risk.

 

[Bet TSLA]

I've considered FSDb on highway to be good enough to use with other passengers onboard. But 11.4.4 has this new behavior like @DWtsn mentioned above, where FSD is attracted to the sudden appearance of new righthand lanes on highways, even when they go off-route, like pull-off areas, trucking weigh stations, turn lanes, etc. I've always caught it early when it starts to do this, so I've only created some minor jerkyness and wife yelps, but I will be avoiding using this build any longer with passengers.

I've used 11.4.4 quite a bit. Yes, I've noticed a mild form of this sort of behavior. In my Model S it seems that every time there's anything interesting to the right, the car will suddenly and erroneously slow. It's like it's a newbie driver doing a looky-loo. There has not been any tendency to actually move to the right when this happens on highways, but all the usual "poor lane choice" things still apply on local streets.

My pet peeve, for the longest time, has been that the car changes lanes into the blind spot of other cars. For no apparent reason. Wait one more second, damn it, and you'll be where the other driver can see you! What it does is just asking for trouble. Rarely a problem? Sure. But just plain gratuitous stupid behavior.

 

[sleepydoc]

There is tons of info out there on Tesla and Waymo approach. You can watch Tesla's AI Day to get a look at the Tesla approach. You can watch Waymo academic talks to get a good look at their approach. No, we might not know every single detail since companies do keep some industry secrets but anyone who cares to dive deep can absolutely get a pretty decent understanding of the Tesla or Waymo approach. So I reject this notion that we just can't really know how they work. That just seems intellectually lazy to me.



To suggest that the only two approaches is to either drive only on accurate HD maps or drive with vision like humans is a gross mischaracterization. Companies who use HD maps, like Waymo, rely heavily on camera vision, lidar and radar to do real-time perception. They do not just navigate with HD maps.

It is also a gross oversimplification to say that there are only 2 broad approaches. There are many different approaches. Vision-only in modular components (perception, prediction, planning are separate), vision-only in end-to-end stack, vision+radar, vision+lidar, vision+lidar+radar (early sensor fusion) with HD maps, vision+lidar+radar (late sensor fusion) with HD maps.

I would also point out that there different types of maps for AVs. There are the basic nav maps, medium definition maps and HD maps. So it is not HD maps or nothing. In fact, all AVs use maps, even Tesla. It is just a matter of how detailed they are.

So it is wrong to say that the only approaches are either hyper accurate HD maps or no maps at all.



Not every company uses HD maps the same. Some might heavily rely on HD maps for certain cases. But others may use HD maps more lightly. I know Waymo has stated that they use HD maps as a prior and do not heavily rely on them. Waymo is designed to rely primarily on real-time perception and Waymo can drive even when the maps are wrong or missing.

SMH - you evidently dont’ understand the term ‘broadly’ or bother to Read my entire post in context.

 

[diplomat33]

Elon tweets update coming soon that will get rid of steering wheel nags (camera will monitor driver instead):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1679705166831050752

So looks like FSD might officially be "hands off" soon.

 

[Knightshade]

If we listed all the things he said were coming soon that never happened we'd be here a while

 

[uscbucsfan]

Elon tweets update coming soon that will get rid of steering wheel nags (camera will monitor driver instead):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1679705166831050752

So looks like FSD might officially be "hands off" soon.

Is this the same one that he said would come in January if you've had over 10,000 FSD miles?

Also funny that Whole Mars tweeted this when he pushes videos that lead people to believe his Tesla has no wheel nag.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Elon tweets update coming soon that will get rid of steering wheel nags

No he didn’t. He just vaguely referred to an upcoming update. This sort of vague statement from Elon that could mean any number of things is classic Elon. Sometimes he is much less ambiguous about things which are coming soon, which of course never happen. But this is not one of those times.

With Elon, “all context is error.”

Presumably he is just referring to the continued increased reliance on attention monitoring rather than wheel nagging, which has made torquing the wheel progressively less necessary over the last six months.

 

[diplomat33]

Is this the same one that he said would come in January if you've had over 10,000 FSD miles?

Well, he does not mention the 10k miles requirement. So who knows with Elon?! Maybe the 10k miles requirement is gone? Maybe there will be some new requirement? It sort of reminds of the "FSD button" fiasco where Elon initially promised FSD beta to anyone who asked, then changed it to a button to request FSD beta, then Tesla introduced the safety score requirement for FSD Beta until they finally rolled out FSD beta to users. I wonder if legal will give Elon a call and let him know that removing the nags could open Tesla up to some big liability issues and Elon will back track?

And I wonder if the recent Blue Cruise 1.3 announcement might be part of the reason Elon tweeted this. More and more companies are now offering L2 highway that is hands-off but uses DMS to monitor the driver. So Elon might be feeling some pressure to keep up. Personally, I don't think FSD beta is ready to remove nags on city streets. But I think removing nags could work on highways under certain conditions. Other than stupid lane changes, FSD beta is actually pretty good on highways. So I could see Tesla offering a true "eyes on/hands off" system on highways soon.

 

[willow_hiller]

Elon tweets update coming soon that will get rid of steering wheel nags (camera will monitor driver instead):

I imagine this could be related to this internal metric reported by Teslascope:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677764917494181888

Tesla appears to be actively estimating the probability of a disengagement at any given moment. So instead of fully hands-off, this update could allow you to be hands-off if the system is confident that disengagements are unlikely, and then request you put your hands back on the wheel during moments where disengagements are more likely. Eventually, if the system gets good enough at predicting future disengagements, this could be leveraged into a full level 3 system.

 

[JohnB007]

Personally, I don't think FSD beta is ready to remove nags on city streets. But I think removing nags could work on highways under certain conditions. Other than stupid lane changes, FSD beta is actually pretty good on highways. So I could see Tesla offering a true "eyes on/hands off" system on highways soon.

I too think FSD is not ready for nag-free in cities, especially the big ones.

Perhaps Tesla can start off with nag-free on certain highway settings, such as "Chill + Minimize Lane Changes" mode? I'm personally comfy enough on this, and gradually increase the scope as FSD gets further developed. I would still keep my hands on the wheel, but this will completely do away with any intentional torquing.

 

[diplomat33]

Tesla appears to be actively estimating the probability of a disengagement at any given moment. So instead of fully hands-off, this update could allow you to be hands-off if the system is confident that disengagements are unlikely, and then request you put your hands back on the wheel during moments where disengagements are more likely. Eventually, if the system gets good enough at predicting future disengagements, this could be leveraged into a full level 3 system.

L3 highways would be great.

 

[diplomat33]

Perhaps Tesla can start off with nag-free on certain highway settings, such as "Chill + Minimize Lane Changes" mode? I'm personally comfy enough on this, and gradually increase the scope as FSD gets further developed. I would still keep my hands on the wheel, but this will completely do away with any intentional torquing.

I would like that.

 

[diplomat33]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677764917494181888

Do we have the actual data on these "safety events"? Do we have number of events per mile or number of events per hour of driving per ODD? It would be interesting to see. It could give us a sense of the MTBF so that we could see what progress Tesla is making towards L4. It might help put things in some context.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Do we have the actual data on these "safety events"? Do we have number of events per mile or number of events per hour of driving per ODD? It would be interesting to see. It could give us a sense of the MTBF so that we could see what progress Tesla is making towards L4. It might help put things in some context.

Looking at the Community Source data, 11.3.5 was the best, 11.3.6 was 2nd and 11.4 has been a pretty huge regression as far as disengagements, but I too would like to know more about what Teslascope is referring to.

 

[JohnB007]

Looking at the Community Source data, 11.3.5 was the best, 11.3.6 was 2nd and 11.4 has been a pretty huge regression as far as disengagements, but I too would like to know more about what Teslascope is referring to.

Are those disengagements in % or in absolute numbers?

 

[DanCar]

Elon tweets update coming soon that will get rid of steering wheel nags (camera will monitor driver instead):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1679705166831050752

So looks like FSD might officially be "hands off" soon.

I have to admit the number one thing I like about Elon is his ability to take risk. Will the risk pay off? We will have to see. I'm going to guestimate this will be a big win for Tesla. I think the car is unlikely to hit anything. Does drive bad, but will not likely hit anything. Yes, can get hit by others because of erratic behavior.

 

[willow_hiller]

Yes, can get hit by others because of erratic behavior.

Second only to incorrect lane changes, I think my most common disengagement is pre-emptive to mitigate road rage. Even when FSD Beta is driving perfectly fine, going +9% over the speed limit, mild slow-downs around blind corners, and stopping down to 0 MPH for stop signs really angers other drivers in my area.

So it's not just "erratic behavior" but also "unhuman behavior," which includes a strict interpretation of driving laws.