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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

JHCCAZ

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Feb 2, 2021
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Tucson
While they have been experimenting with this, they should have employed a team dedicated to correct wrong speed limits, etc, and really make the best of what they have on the old stack. Autopilot and NoA could have been such a good experience on the road to FSD, if they had a dedicated team to maintain and fix issues
You are referring to mapping and database corrections/updates that do seem to be at the heart of many trouble-spot reports (and also a few magic trouble-spot fixes).

This brings up the concern of whether Tesla will assign any additional resources to mapping in the future, after the FSD stack has matured. If they don't value it enough now, why should we think they'll value it later? Because they will free up FSD machine-learning geniuses to happily work the ongoing map-updating project? Seems unlikely. Because they will fire the expensive machine-learning geniuses, suddenly all finished, to free up budget for a bigger map-maintenance team? Also unrealistic.

I certainly agree that satisfaction with the existing features would be helped by a more aggressive update program, including a more timely and communicative response to user map-update reports. I think the enthusiasm of the user base would be sky-high if
1. Every report came back with an acknowledgment message (presumably automated),
2. More importantly, if within days after submitting a valid report, an update would be pushed and a (presumably automated) message came back saying that the reported issue has been addressed, please let us know via our feedback system whether this has resolved the issue.

Of course, there may be a policy of assigning lower priority to a single report, vs. higher priority to multiple reports especially from multiple users. But still, providing some acknowledgment and follow-up for every single report, plus clear evidence that map updates are happening often, would enhance the quality of the Tesla experience.
 

statistix

Member
Sep 14, 2018
5
12
Seattle
The only thing I might disagree with there is they are unlikely to add radar back, simply to save face and the cost of installing radar in radardless cars. Their language is pretty clear, radar is gone. For better or worse. Much more likely would be replacing a forward looking camera to fill any gap they may have, something with better low light performance or further reach or whatever.
I'm inclined to agree that radar is gone - however, I would clarify that radar is gone, for now, on Model 3 and Y in the US only. It would truly be 'gone' once they do this globally across their portfolio. There's a vague commitment to this at this time. A doubling down would be to remove it also in the X and S right now too.

With the purchase disclaimer, they can still save face if future models include a 'better' Tesla made radar. I would propose branding it as: Tesla 'Radar Vision' or 'RadarVision'. Hehehe.
 
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stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
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You are referring to mapping and database corrections/updates that do seem to be at the heart of many trouble-spot reports (and also a few magic trouble-spot fixes).

This brings up the concern of whether Tesla will assign any additional resources to mapping in the future, after the FSD stack has matured. If they don't value it enough now, why should we think they'll value it later? Because they will free up FSD machine-learning geniuses to happily work the ongoing map-updating project? Seems unlikely. Because they will fire the expensive machine-learning geniuses, suddenly all finished, to free up budget for a bigger map-maintenance team? Also unrealistic.

I certainly agree that satisfaction with the existing features would be helped by a more aggressive update program, including a more timely and communicative response to user map-update reports. I think the enthusiasm of the user base would be sky-high if
1. Every report came back with an acknowledgment message (presumably automated),
2. More importantly, if within days after submitting a valid report, an update would be pushed and a (presumably automated) message came back saying that the reported issue has been addressed, please let us know via our feedback system whether this has resolved the issue.

Of course, there may be a policy of assigning lower priority to a single report, vs. higher priority to multiple reports especially from multiple users. But still, providing some acknowledgment and follow-up for every single report, plus clear evidence that map updates are happening often, would enhance the quality of the Tesla experience.
Tesla is using third party map providers for such data (different ones depending on region) and other than the "HD" maps that they showcased a few years back (that offer a better determination of individual lanes) it doesn't appear Tesla has a infrastructure for another layer of Tesla dedicated map data corrections on top of the vendor's, nor do I feel they will devote much, if any, engineering efforts on this. Their general error reporting infrastructure they have isn't very strong (likely by choice, they likely don't have the resources to address all the reported things, which is likely why the bug report feature is local to the car), much less something as dedicated as this.

That kind of fits with Tesla's vision for FSD. Basically with a goal of developing a more "human-like" system that can navigate using standard GPS maps and figure out the conditions for driving. I think the eventual fix under this assumption is simply to make it react more "human-like" to speed limit changes. Another thing Tesla can improve is the communication on what the car is doing. I've seen reviews of the competing systems in China (like XPeng's) and while the actual capabilities may not necessarily be better (like for example how it handles curves) they do a far better job of communicating what the car is doing and why it is doing it. For example, instead of that generic chime Tesla uses, the car actually says vocally why/what the system doing (as well as displaying on the display). I guess for some people that may be an annoyance (thus the "Joe mode"), but that can just be a menu option.
 
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JHCCAZ

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Feb 2, 2021
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...instead of that generic chime Tesla uses, the [XPeng] car actually says vocally why/what the system doing (as well as displaying on the display). I guess for some people that may be an annoyance (thus the "Joe mode"), but that can just be a menu option.
Based on typical comments here, I think many people would be annoyed by more voice announcements. But I would love them. As I've gotten older, I have trouble reading the screen without mid-reading glasses that I certainly can't use for driving - especially the discreetly-minimized, pastel-colored graphics that are in vogue these days. Many people shut off voice prompts while phone-Maps-navigating and just glance at the screen; I do the opposite, listen but rarely look over.

So I would love it if the car could efficiently announce every important notice and accept voice input commands for every setting (I think the latter is getting there but still incomplete, and the former is nowhere). Things like:
Cruise Engaged|Disengaged
AutoSteer Engaged|Disengaged
Approaching Red|Green Light
Approaching Four Way Stop
Speed Limit Change 50 Miles per Hour
etc.

Those who don't like it can simply disable it, and default-to-off is no problem for me as long as it's available.
 

KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
620
568
Columbus OH
Tesla Wide-Spectrum Super-Human Vision
Or maybe "Smart Neural Absolute Future Uploaded" radar? It will be available in 3 months likely, or 6 for sure via OTA updates. Beta only, of course and pending regulatory approval. Only available in North America red models.

We'll call it SNAFU for short.
 
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powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
2,859
5,359
USA
No, it still happens from time to time, although not related to underpasses for me.

I had a minor one 2 weeks ago when my car passed a pickup truck with a bunch of stuff in the cargo area.

Although I'm not sure if this would be considered a phantom brake, more of an overly cautious braking due to confusing shadows cast by the items in the pickup truck.

It's definitely less often than prior versions.
 

Tam

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Nov 25, 2012
9,219
7,898
Visalia, CA
Are we all pure vision yet? I thought existing radar is still used for now and will be phased out eventually?

No. You know you are not pure vision if you can turn off your headlights and can still activate TACC (not autosteer) at any time of day or night.

You know you are in pure vision if you have to turn on your auto high headlights in order to activate TACC (and above such as Autosteer, FSD...) even on broad daylight.
 

RTPEV

Active Member
Mar 21, 2016
1,017
1,153
Durham, NC
I think in general you should "worry" about it until you actually see an improvement in your daily use. If you go several months without an event (when you previously saw one once a week, for example), then your "worry" level can go down. Of course each time you receive a new update, you should again be more vigilant, but over time you may get more comfortable with it.

This applies to any "automatic" behavior, not just phantom braking.
 

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
175
217
Northern Wi
Yes. Tesla needs to get this solved. Really annoying in MX with FSD. We have 3 other cars with Adaptive /braking cruise. NONE of them slam on the brakes for no reason on 2 lane roads. Have had them 3-4 years and didn't even know this was a problem until got MX. It's annoying AF! Get you poop together Tesla, the "dinosaur" companies are kicking your a&^ here with their outdated, useless technology.
 

mikes_fsd

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May 23, 2014
2,562
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Charlotte, NC

MP3Mike

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Feb 1, 2016
16,247
36,682
Oregon
It seems that the IIHS has completed their testing and the new Tesla Vision system has passed and gained the Top Safety Pick+ status. As a result Consumer Reports has reinstated their Top Pick status for the Model 3 as well.


When the IIHS tested a newer Model 3 with Tesla Vision earlier this month, it awarded the vehicle a top Superior rating in a test of whether it could avoid or lessen a collision with another vehicle, and an acceptable Advanced rating in tests of whether it could avoid or lessen the impact of striking a pedestrian.

These results are the same as those the IIHS got when it tested an earlier Model 3 with radar, says David Aylor, manager of active safety testing at the IIHS. “The performance seems to be similar for both systems,” he told CR. The similar Tesla Model Y also uses a camera-based system but does not have a Top Safety Pick+ designation because it has yet to be tested, Aylor says.

Also, today Tesla started rolling out the a new version that ups the speed limit to 80 MPH, and adds Smart Summon and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance.
 

Tam

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Nov 25, 2012
9,219
7,898
Visalia, CA
Now that Tesla is at the radarless feature of pure vision on FSD beta 9.0: Here's the reality check for unintentional brakes (phantom brakes): It still happens. Sometimes it's associated with an event just like the way it did for the radar before: When the car far away in front turns left or right but it is completely clear from Tesla's lane in front. Somtimes there's no reasons to be found such as below: The system was accelerating to catch up with the car in front to 48 MPH:

Phantom_Brakes_Increase_to_48MPH.jpg


It then slows down way behind the car in front at 31 MPH which is a drop of 17 MPH:

Phantom_Brakes_Down_to_31MPHjpg.jpg
 
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stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
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5,758
Now that Tesla is at the radarless feature of pure vision on FSD beta 9.0: Here's the reality check for unintentional brakes (phantom brakes): It still happens. Sometimes it's associated with an event just like the way it did for the radar before: When the car far away in front turns left or right but it is completely clear from Tesla's lane in front. Somtimes there's no reasons to be found such as below: The system was accelerating to catch up with the car in front to 48 MPH:
This is to be expected, as a lot of the "phantom braking" (or "phantom slowing" depending on your definition of "braking") is not due to the perception engine, but rather due to mapping issues (like wrong speed limits, thinking it's on a local road vs highway, or incorrect curve mapping). Plus there are issues that is related to vision and not radar. All removing radar does is remove the radar related phantom brakes (the type Tesla tried to eliminate with whitelists).
 
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KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
620
568
Columbus OH
a lot of the "phantom braking" (or "phantom slowing" depending on your definition of "braking") is not due to the perception engine, but rather due to mapping issues (like wrong speed limits, thinking it's on a local road vs highway, or incorrect curve mapping)
Apparently not in this example. Car says speed limit is 45, speed is set to 51 in both examples. Unless of course those display numbers are a different bug.
This is to be expected,
Maybe with v9.

While software bugs happen, personally I don't consider that to be "expected behavior" with the software most mere mortals get. GA Tesla software is riddled with bugs, new ones introduced with each push. Most companies actually do testing before pushing to the public, fixing bugs prior to general release. Tesla seems fairly unique in skipping these steps, or maybe they just ignore them when discovered in the interest of "progress".
 

stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
10,827
5,758
Apparently not in this example. Car says speed limit is 45, speed is set to 51 in both examples. Unless of course those display numbers are a different bug.
That doesn't eliminate the possibility of it being a mapping issue. When the car slows for curves (which is mainly map based) it does not update the speed limit symbol, so it can still be a mapping issue.
Maybe with v9.

While software bugs happen, personally I don't consider that to be "expected behavior" with the software most mere mortals get. GA Tesla software is riddled with bugs, new ones introduced with each push. Most companies actually do testing before pushing to the public, fixing bugs prior to general release. Tesla seems fairly unique in skipping these steps, or maybe they just ignore them when discovered in the interest of "progress".
Phantom braking occurs even with automakers that have "fully tested" systems. And it's to be expected, given standard testing basically won't over all cases that you can encounter in the real world. I don't think it'll ever be completely eliminated, especially if a lot of the map based assistive features can't be completely turned off (because maps will always have mistakes). Other cars have settings that allow to you disable a lot of settings that cause phantom braking or don't offer them in the first place (like disable any speed assist, they might not have slowing for curves, nor would they necessarily react to adjacent lanes). If Tesla allows disabling some of these features, I think it can go fairly far in reducing phantom braking.
Speculation on the reason for the refresh delay
 

Tam

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Nov 25, 2012
9,219
7,898
Visalia, CA
There's a report of radarless Model Y:


"...every time the car is cresting a hill it will slow down/hesitate"

I would classify that as pure vision phantom brakes or unintentional brakes or undesirable brakes/deceleration
 
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