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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,110
7,832
Visalia, CA
ok. i did not know that. really seems wrong, because my auto high beams don't work well either! lights go high beam and to low beam whenever a reflective street sign comes up. plus they auto dim when an oncoming car is too close and too late (at least for me, I would auto dim when a car is pretty far away).

so there really is not a setting now in the car that let's you turn off the auto feature of high beams? or move the left stalk forward manually? ok then, i need to get with the new and "better". I'm so 3 years ago! not always a win for Tesla.

In North America, starting from 4/27/2021, Model 3 and Y do not come with radar anymore. They rely on vision to detect speed and obstacles.

With the older radar-equipped Tesla cars, the vision can be impaired as in turning the headlights off and the radar still can detect speed and obstacles.

Thus, for Tesla radarless cars, if you want to use TACC, Autopilot, FSD or anything that requires speed and obstacle detections, you need to make sure your car is set with Auto High Beam even in the middle of broad daylight. You don't have to but you just can't use those features.

I have quit using Auto High Beam because it keeps alternation high/low, low/high inappropriately at times... and there were times it did that when the police cars were around as if it was asking for tickets! And fortunate for me that my Tesla cars still have radars so I have the option to quit using it.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
8,159
9,695
Terre Haute, IN USA
Or both, many winners is possible. Depends also if one waits for that Eureka tech to solve everything suddenly or evolutionary steps in sensors, software and hardware.

Just my opinion but I think we could see several "winners" in the area of autonomous driving. I don't think there will be just one single "winner". I think we will see ride-hailing companies like Waymo and Cruise do well in the ride-hailing market. We could see delivery companies like Nuro do well with autonomous delivery. And then we could see companies like Tesla and Mobileye do well with autonomous driving for consumer cars. After all, there are many different types of applications (ride-hailing, delivery, ride-sharing, personal car ownership, trucking). The AV market is big enough for different companies to carve out their own niche. And FSD has different factors from cost, convenience, safety, availability etc... So different FSD systems could offer different benefits to consumers. Just like we have different smart phone providers that offer different types of phones and different benefits, we could see something similar with AVs.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,952
2,061
Orange County, CA
In North America, starting from 4/27/2021, Model 3 and Y do not come with radar anymore. They rely on vision to detect speed and obstacles.


Thus, for Tesla radarless cars, if you want to use TACC, Autopilot, FSD or anything that requires speed and obstacle detections, you need to make sure your car is set with Auto High Beam even in the middle of broad daylight. You don't have to but you just can't use those features.

I have quit using Auto High Beam because it keeps alternation high/low, low/high inappropriately at times... and there were times it did that when the police cars were around as if it was asking for tickets! And fortunate for me that my Tesla cars still have radars so I have the option to quit using it.
Funny, but both our 2020 MY and 2017 M3 have no issues with auto high-beam. I wonder why some people report problems yet others, like me, have no issue. In your case, you have a radar-equipped S and M3. You're saying both cars act identically and unacceptably? Weird.
 
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Saabstory88

Member
Dec 31, 2018
101
120
Midwest
Funny, but both our 2020 MY and 2017 M3 have no issues with auto high-beam. I wonder why some people report problems yet others, like me, have no issue. In your case, you have a radar-equipped S and M3. You're saying both cars act identically and unacceptably? Weird.
We had to drive our trade in (2018 Model 3) several hundred miles to pick up our new car. It was a two day affair so we got to compare AP and other features directly in the same conditions. The auto high beam aggressiveness in the radarless cars is completely different from the radar cars. I also have successfully used auto high beams in both our Model S and old Model 3. They are okay, I agree with you.

The new system is completely different. Unlike the previous system where if there are cars on the opposite side of the highway, it will switch back to low beams, the new system keeps the high beams on unless any other car is within about 300', in either direction. So on midwest highways, this meant we were shooting high beams at people across the way until they were nearly on top of us. Honks and lots of flashes followed, and we had to drive manually for quite a bit at night. Also, when reverting to using high beams manually, and appropriately, the forward facing cameras reported being blinded when low beams were left engaged for more than 30 seconds.

The radar cars high beams are usable in most cases. The radar free auto high beams behave in a way that will get you a ticket.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,156
36,447
Oregon
the new system keeps the high beams on unless any other car is within about 300', in either direction.

Are you sure it is 300'? (Most state laws have the requirement to dim between 300' and 500', most seem to be 500' for approaching traffic and 300' for traffic you are following.)

So Tesla may be trying to follow the laws precisely were most people are more aggressive at their headlight dipping.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,405
2,424
VB
We had to drive our trade in (2018 Model 3) several hundred miles to pick up our new car. It was a two day affair so we got to compare AP and other features directly in the same conditions. The auto high beam aggressiveness in the radarless cars is completely different from the radar cars. I also have successfully used auto high beams in both our Model S and old Model 3. They are okay, I agree with you.

The new system is completely different. Unlike the previous system where if there are cars on the opposite side of the highway, it will switch back to low beams, the new system keeps the high beams on unless any other car is within about 300', in either direction. So on midwest highways, this meant we were shooting high beams at people across the way until they were nearly on top of us. Honks and lots of flashes followed, and we had to drive manually for quite a bit at night. Also, when reverting to using high beams manually, and appropriately, the forward facing cameras reported being blinded when low beams were left engaged for more than 30 seconds.

The radar cars high beams are usable in most cases. The radar free auto high beams behave in a way that will get you a ticket.
I don’t believe that the autohighbeems work differently between the two cars. And even if that’s the case it’s a simple software fix once they decide to make it.
 

helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
390
535
Phoenixville, PA
I don’t believe that the autohighbeems work differently between the two cars. And even if that’s the case it’s a simple software fix once they decide to make it.
Aw man, don't give the guy a dislike for sharing his opinion :p I have a MY (radar) and also have a friend who bought a MYP (vision), he will let me test it, and I use Auto High Beams all the time. I'm curious to see if they're noticeably different.
 
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steve68

Member
May 9, 2021
106
95
New Mexico
I don’t believe that the autohighbeems work differently between the two cars. And even if that’s the case it’s a simple software fix once they decide to make it.
You don't believe it? Ok...

I only had ACC on for about 10 minutes at night for the first time before I had to turn it off and drive manual because drivers on the other side of the highway were freaking out. So ACC (and of course FSD) is pretty much unusable at night for my vehicle (no radar).

But feel free to believe whatever you want.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,405
2,424
VB
Aw man, don't give the guy a dislike for sharing his opinion :p I have a MY (radar) and also have a friend who bought a MYP (vision), he will let me test it, and I use Auto High Beams all the time. I'm curious to see if they're noticeably different.

Take a video then and we will see. Then we don’t have to worry about opinions. I dislike his opinion.
 
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helvio

E-TARDIS
Aug 11, 2020
390
535
Phoenixville, PA
Unchecking Telemetry does not stop Tesla from sending new code to your car. I was talking about them using your car as a test platform, with new models and behaviors to "see how they work." Exactly like they are doing with vision only cars today, and like they do with many AP software updates:


The issue is that the other elements like smart summon, lane change, etc are still in development and get changed. Tesla does not tell you these are still very much in development.

Auto wipers are still technically beta once you get the car and see it on the screen, but Tesla doesn't tell you that ahead of time.
Found it!

Settings - Safety & Security - (Bottom) Data Sharing
 
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daktari

Member
Jan 21, 2017
908
1,030
Norway
Seems like Tesla now really need to speed up developing matrix lights. No FSD at night until then.

Should be easy for them with all this fancy computer vision. Will take 4-5 months from Karpathys team, 7 cycles shadow mode, petabytes etc etc
 
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Saabstory88

Member
Dec 31, 2018
101
120
Midwest
Take a video then and we will see. Then we don’t have to worry about opinions. I dislike his opinion.
So what would you consider a proper test? I'd love to drive mirror to mirror down the highway for identical conditions, but based on how it reacts to illuminated signs, I'd be worried about their behavior influencing each other. Would the same stretch of road but, one after another be okay?

If it rains soon I'd definitely like to do a side by side wiper test. That was the biggest difference we noticed.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,174
2,713
Seattle, WA
Seems like Tesla now really need to speed up developing matrix lights. No FSD at night until then.

Should be easy for them with all this fancy computer vision. Will take 4-5 months from Karpathys team, 7 cycles shadow mode, petabytes etc etc

Two issues:
1) Matrix headlights are illegal in the USA.
2) Matrix headlights need sensing. They are supposed to not illuminate cars and pedestrians, but illuminate the road, signs, and other hazards. But, Tesla's own auto high beams turn off for signs, and can't seem to estimate the location of cars well. If Tesla had the sensing they needed for matrix lights, then auto high beams that didn't flick on and off for all sorts of stuff would be trivial.

Weird that we don't have reliable auto high beams, and other brands have had matrix lights for years now.
 
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daktari

Member
Jan 21, 2017
908
1,030
Norway
Two issues:
1) Matrix headlights are illegal in the USA.
2) Matrix headlights need sensing. They are supposed to not illuminate cars and pedestrians, but illuminate the road, signs, and other hazards. But, Tesla's own auto high beams turn off for signs, and can't seem to estimate the location of cars well. If Tesla had the sensing they needed for matrix lights, then auto high beams that didn't flick on and off for all sorts of stuff would be trivial.

Weird that we don't have reliable auto high beams, and other brands have had matrix lights for years now.
1) that is really sad, they are fantastic!
2) very good point. I believed my cars used the cameras, not a light sensor, to identify headlights and taillights for matrix lights. The car need to know where to dim. I also thought Tesla did this already. But then comes the question, if you have only continous oncoming traffic, will the vision-only Tesla be able to use AP even with dipped beams for prolonged periods?
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,405
2,424
VB
You don't believe it? Ok...

I only had ACC on for about 10 minutes at night for the first time before I had to turn it off and drive manual because drivers on the other side of the highway were freaking out. So ACC (and of course FSD) is pretty much unusable at night for my vehicle (no radar).

But feel free to believe whatever you want.
I'm not seeing an opinion.

What I see is an observation.

Sure video is nice to confirm an observation, but its a pretty black and white kind of thing.
It is an opinion because and not an observation. There is no science to it. It’s a feeling. People’s perception of reality can too easily be altered to consider his opinion “black and white”
 
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qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,405
2,424
VB
So what would you consider a proper test? I'd love to drive mirror to mirror down the highway for identical conditions, but based on how it reacts to illuminated signs, I'd be worried about their behavior influencing each other. Would the same stretch of road but, one after another be okay?

If it rains soon I'd definitely like to do a side by side wiper test. That was the biggest difference we noticed.
I mean, he is saying there is a huge difference. So if there is a huge difference we shouldn’t have to dissect frame by frame about sign reflection. Should be obvious.
 
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steve68

Member
May 9, 2021
106
95
New Mexico
I should add that a few times before I turned off ACC, when cars on the other side of the highway would flash their brights at me, my car would instantly switch to low beams (and then soon back to high beams). I don't know if this helps with the discussion.
 

mark95476

Active Member
Jun 21, 2020
1,686
1,019
Bay Area CA
Data-point: 2020 MY with radar running 4.18.2 firmware. No high-beams with AP engaged.

AP_no_high_beam.jpg


I have auto high-beams disabled. I know it works as I tried it back when I got my car.
 

FloridaJohn

Member
Apr 1, 2016
362
440
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
I was watching the CVPR 2021 video where Karpathy talks about why radar is a problem and "vision only" is better. He starts by showing this slide. In the graph, the orange line is the radar signal and the blue line is the vision signal.

Braking1.JPG


In the top chart, he points out that the orange vertical lines are from the radar and is essentially "noise," as the blue visual signal smoothly brings the car to a stop behind the emergency braking vehicle.

A later slide shows these two signals in a "partially blocking" situation.

Braking2.JPG


Now in this case, Karpathy points out that the "vision only" solution picks up the obstruction sooner than the radar and starts to slow the car sooner.

What he does not address, however, is the vertical blue lines before the car starts to slow down. In the previous slide, he says that the vertical lines on the radar signal leads to phantom braking. Does the vertical lines on this blue line indicate phantom braking caused by the vision system?

I don't think we (audience members of his talk) have enough information to be able to determine the answer to that question, but I do find it interesting that the abrupt changes to the position signal in the radar version that are a "problem" are apparently not one in the vision version. Or maybe they are and he just failed to mention it. Or, if it is not a problem in the vision system, how come those same techniques couldn't be used in the radar vision?
 
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