"Even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car!"

[Chopr147]

Park itself on a train, get to it's destination. Drive off train right to your driveway. Pretty cool stuff A few years away but definitely possible.
Elon had mentioned something about the Model 3 production line being human-free

 

[Aieukl378]

Hi everyone !

Well after reading so many about options estimations and witch ones will be proposed with the model 3.

I have a question for you people!

Have we Forgotten or have we Questioning enough about what Elon said at the end of the presentation of the model 3?

"Even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car!"- Elon Musk

There is a lot of questions to be made from this. Please make yours! Focus!

My question: what could make today the difference between a base model S and a base model 3{an amazing car by Elon} ?

To be more clear, is the base model S already an amazing and so nothing much special to be expected from the base model 3?

What I think is that we may be getting this all rong about options and a base model 3 may include a lot of today options for S/X.

Thanks.

I have a fairly base MS. I paid extra for the color, pano roof and AP. Without any of these add-ons it would still be ridiculous amazing. (though AP does take it to "OMG Ridiculous Amazing").

 

[Topher]

Thanks for emphasizing my point. All that arithmetic instead of starting from miles/kWh

If are going to use a new metric let's use Wh/mile rather than the inverse. We have suffered enough with the non-linear nature of mpg for too long.

Go ahead though, and tell me your guess what fraction of the adult American populace know that a gallon of petrol contains ~ 33.7 kWh of energy.

Quite frankly, I am astounded by the number of people who do. I was going to mention it in this thread before you made your comment. The number has increased dramatically in the last few years.

If we want a simple calculation that gives people an idea how much it will COST to drive, we should use a metric which actually includes money: cents/mile.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Topher]

Hell, with autopilot standard, they could even have the cars drive off and park themselves somewhere when they reach the end of the line.

No reason ALL cars coming off the line won't have autonomous driving FOR TESLA. All you are paying for is permission.

Thank you kindly.

 

[SageBrush]

If are going to use a new metric let's use Wh/mile rather than the inverse. We have suffered enough with the non-linear nature of mpg for too long.

Fine by me.

Lots of people are conversant with simple energy units and amounts, but then again there are billions of humans and ~ 300 million Americans. One percent of 300 million is a lot of people, but decisions by the EPA for labelling are meant to serve a large fraction of the driving public, and by this measure it fails miserably. Not only does MPGe presume knowledge and facility that is overwhelmingly absent, it implies fuel source equivalence.

I'll stop ranting the day I can buy a gallon of electricity.

 

[Rookie]

Now, take into consideration the fact that with a Model 3, you're going to have less real world range than I get in my P85D. I couldn't imagine having to stop every 150 miles for 30-60 minutes on a 1,000 mile trip. This is not an unusual road trip either, as it is the SF to Yellowstone route, which is a pretty popular vacation route. 100 mpg is nice, but for the typical mass market auto buyer range and time to refuel is at least as important.
.

If model 3 battery is smaller then charging time would be less than what it is for Model S i.e. less than 30 mins. May be around 15-20 mins. Also Tesla has been increasing supercahrger power output little by little over a period of time.

Also for occasional long trips one can take ICE vehicle if the frequent charging is a disruption / problem for the travel plan.

 

[JeffK]

If model 3 battery is smaller then charging time would be less than what it is for Model S i.e. less than 30 mins. May be around 15-20 mins. Also Tesla has been increasing supercahrger power output little by little over a period of time.

Also for occasional long trips one can take ICE vehicle if the frequent charging is a disruption / problem for the travel plan.

The larger battery capacities are actually capable of being charged faster without risking the battery health...
basically speaking charge a high capacity battery and a low capacity battery for 30 minutes on a supercharger and the higher capacity battery will have more of a charge (due to the software allowing it to charge at a faster rate). Does that make sense?

 

[jgillispie]

The larger battery capacities are actually capable of being charged faster without risking the battery health...
basically speaking charge a high capacity battery and a low capacity battery for 30 minutes on a supercharger and the higher capacity battery will have more of a charge (due to the software allowing it to charge at a faster rate). Does that make sense?

Not sure if this is the apples to apples way of saying it but it takes the same amount of time to charge my phone as it does a Tesla.

 

[JeffK]

Not sure if this is the apples to apples way of saying it but it takes the same amount of time to charge my phone as it does a Tesla.

That's a great analogy

 

[Topher]

Fine by me.

Lots of people are conversant with simple energy units and amounts, but then again there are billions of humans and ~ 300 million Americans.

I am not disagreeing. My point is just that people will acquire the information which is important for them. Given that, we should present for them, a metric with maximal utility. A majority of those 300 Million Americans know about MPG, there was a time when that number was 0.\

Thank you kindly.

 

[SageBrush]

That's a great analogy

I prefer P units

 

[SageBrush]

I am not disagreeing. My point is just that people will acquire the information which is important for them. Given that, we should present for them, a metric with maximal utility.

Agree 100%

 

[JeffK]

I prefer P units

G-Unit?!

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Check the link. 3 different 85kWh Tesla S variants, each with different ranges - which is fine. But the one on the left rated as a 89 MPGe versus 93 MPGe for the one in the 3rd column, despite having 12 miles greater range. Same size battery, more range, worse economy by MPGe rating.

It appears like horsepowers, not all MPGe are created equal. Or that range is wrong. Or something.

That's accurate. The non performance AWD S gets better mileage than the RWD S b/c having two motors allowed Tesla to increase efficiency w/o hurting acceleration, and the performance AWD version is worse than the normal AWD version b/c of different tires/wheels (maybe different gearing too?).

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Hardly. You are comparing different fuels and different sources as if they are the same.

This is the RAV EV 'extender.' The generator being towed burns petrol to make electricity for the EV. The generator is around 20% efficient, good for around 60 MPGe in the RAV. Do you really think that less energy/mile is used in this configuration than burning the petrol directly in an ICE RAV that gets ~ 30 MPG ?!?.

ACP's info suggests 30-35mpg at 60-80mph. Do you have any links to a RAV-4 EV netting 60mpg@60+mph?

http://www.tzev.com/files/rxt-g_acp_long_ranger_stats_data.pdf

 

[Red Sage]

But there are efficiency losses when charging, correct?

When filling an ICE tank one rarely spills a significant amount of fuel.

To me it is much like the 'Well to Wheels' arguments, where EV Naysayers want to go all the way to the coal mines that power a declining number of power plants, but don't want to trace the source of the gasoline that goes into ICE vehicles. Does each gallon of fuel in the tank pay for its 'transmission fees' to reach your tank? Are those 'losses' included in the calculation of actual expense for its convenience? There was plenty of fuel that was burned to get that gasoline pumped, transported, refined before it reached the vehicles' tank but all that is ignored.

 

[SageBrush]

ACP's info suggests 30-35mpg at 60-80mph. Do you have any links to a RAV-4 EV netting 60mpg@60+mph?

Not MPG -- MPGe
I was using the 'long extender' as an example of MPGe silliness when people presume to use it compare an EV to an ICE.

 

[Red Sage]

But there are efficiency losses when charging, correct?

When filling an ICE tank one rarely spills a significant amount of fuel.

To put it another way... There is a difference, I think, between the terms 'usage' and 'consumption'. A lot more energy is consumed to allow a Toyota Prius to travel 100 miles than there is used by the car itself. And the mythical Prius that does 0-60 MPH in 2.5 seconds and has a top speed of at least 155 MPH certainly uses more energy per mile than any version of the Tesla Model ☰. No matter how you look at it, a Ford Fusion Energi or Chevrolet VOLT will consume far more energy than is needed to actually move those vehicles through 100 miles. Better than 65% of the energy they consume is spent in heat, light, and noise once they are beyond their initial fully electric range. But their MPGe rating is weighted in their favor due to being plugins that use gasoline.

Compare Side-by-Side: Tesla Model S P100D, Chevrolet BOLT, Chevrolet VOLT, Ford Fusion Energi

 

[SageBrush]

I used to think that VW's penchant for installing large fuel tanks was stupid, since it added weight and people surely knew that the long advertised range had nothing to due with efficiency. Then I read a VW forum for a while and learned that the owners loved that aspect of their cars because they tended to be long distance and high mileage car users and less frequent fill-ups was a big deal to them.

Why this story ? To emphasize that the window sticker is best used for transparency about things that matter to the consumer. For EVs I"ll guess the main ones are range and charging rate. Efficiency is not even on the radar now, and it will recede even further as EVs become more mainstream. This is not my preference or how I view a car but this is America.

 

[Topher]

Not sure if this is the apples to apples way of saying it but it takes the same amount of time to charge my phone as it does a Tesla.

When talking about an individual battery cell, the charge rate is limited by the chemistry not the electronics. So a phone charger charges a few cells at low power, a car charges thousands of batteries at high power, but each cell is getting about the same charge rate.

Thank you kindly.