"Even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car!"

[Red Sage]

I used to think that VW's penchant for installing large fuel tanks was stupid, since it added weight and people surely knew that the long advertised range had nothing to due with efficiency. Then I read a VW forum for a while and learned that the owners loved that aspect of their cars because they tended to be long distance and high mileage car users and less frequent fill-ups was a big deal to them.

In ICE vehicles, I always thought it was kind of dumb that the most fuel efficient vehicles tend to have the smallest fuel tanks, under 13.5 gallons most of the time. The latest version of the Chevrolet VOLT has a smaller fuel tank than the original car. As a result its total range is considerably less than the Prius. If I didn't know better, I'd swear that ICE manufacturers make sure that no one gets to pass up a gas station as often as they'd like. So all consumers are still tied to the pump, chained to volatile changes in prices, even as fuel efficiency per gallon increases. As a result, only those with the heaviest of leaden feet actually notice the difference in overall range between a gas guzzler and another less greedy car.

Why this story ? To emphasize that the window sticker is best used for transparency about things that matter to the consumer. For EVs I"ll guess the main ones are range and charging rate. Efficiency is not even on the radar now, and it will recede even further as EVs become more mainstream. This is not my preference or how I view a car but this is America.

I think the efficiency numbers are mostly there as a comparison for potential amounts spent to fuel a vehicle, relative to others that have taken the same tests. It may or may not work for some. But to those who want the most amount of information in the most compact format, the Monroney stickers do their job. And the EPA's website handles the rest. Yes, even though the results seem inordinately biased in favor of plugin hybrids or extremely low range tiny EVs.

 

[shrspeedblade]

As a Volt2 owner, I can say that just getting people used to plugging in a car isn't a bad thing. A lot of people don't start with hard liquor, just an innocent wine cooler lol!

It doesn't take long before you start thinking, "Hmmmm.... if this thing went 200 miles on a charge I'd NEVER have to buy gas!"

 

[garsh]

Hell, with autopilot standard, they could even have the cars drive off and park themselves somewhere when they reach the end of the line.

No reason ALL cars coming off the line won't have autonomous driving FOR TESLA. All you are paying for is permission.

Yes, exactly!

If it wasn't for wear & tear issues, they could program each vehicle to drive directly to their new owner's location after leaving the assembly line. Then offer the new owner a demonstration fully-autonomous ride-along with one last opportunity to purchase the feature before turning it off.

 

[SageBrush]

I think the efficiency numbers are mostly there as a comparison for potential amounts spent to fuel a vehicle, relative to others that have taken the same tests.

Yup, which is why MPGe is such a fail in my opinion. The comparo only has meaning between similarly fueled vehicles.

 

[brianman]

View attachment 200225

"Compensating" comes to mind. By that I mean they're spending/wasting money on frivolities rather than the core competency -- competing with the smoothness of a single-gear EV.

 

[Garlan Garner]

"Compensating" comes to mind. By that I mean they're spending/wasting money on frivolities rather than the core competency -- competing with the smoothness of a single-gear EV.

I guess people like frivolities because they are selling these cars. I suppose there is a market for them.

 

[JeffK]

When talking about an individual battery cell, the charge rate is limited by the chemistry not the electronics. So a phone charger charges a few cells at low power, a car charges thousands of batteries at high power, but each cell is getting about the same charge rate.
Thank you kindly.

We aren't referring to "C rate" but raw kWh over time with the same chemistry or maybe we should say "miles/minute" if it makes you feel any better . At a supercharger the P100D will gain more miles/min than an S60. As far as the miles/min rate, they are not the same.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Not MPG -- MPGe
I was using the 'long extender' as an example of MPGe silliness when people presume to use it compare an EV to an ICE.

Where are you getting the 60MPGe number for a RAV-4 EV using the ACP range extender?

I don't see MPGe as silly offhand. It's just distance per unit energy and is used to compare the efficiency of different kinds of fuel a customer gets at some point of sale (POS). Granted, I think we should use unit energy per distance, since that's more intuitive, but that's for all vehicles.

 

[SageBrush]

Where are you getting the 60MPGe number for a RAV-4 EV using the ACP range extender?

It is actually higher, my mental arithmetic was off.

If you wish to calculate yourself, just look up the efficiency of the motorcycle 2-stroke used as generator and from there plug in numbers. Or you can simply realize that the combustion losses in the generator are ignored in an MPGe calculation.

 

[Topher]

We aren't referring to "C rate" but raw kWh over time with the same chemistry or maybe we should say "miles/minute" if it makes you feel any better . At a supercharger the P100D will gain more miles/min than an S60. As far as the miles/min rate, they are not the same.

I was not talking about miles/minute, since I couldn't imagine how to measure that for a cellphone.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Red Sage]

"Compensating" comes to mind. By that I mean they're spending/wasting money on frivolities rather than the core competency -- competing with the smoothness of a single-gear EV.

Yes, 'frivolities' is a good way to put it. I've been calling it 'window dressing'. None of that stuff actually costs very much. It is the labor of the craftsman that puts it all together that increases the price. And the amount charged for it 'at retail' is still multitudes more than anyone pays the craftsman. If I wanted a gilded, quilted, buttoned, pillowed, leathered, draped, tufted, folded, bunched, or laced interior in my car I've got a guy who lives a block away from my Brother to do that, and he does GREAT work! If I were restoring a circa 1974 Cadillac he'd be the guy I'd go to first. I am not at all impressed by the supposed need for a longitudinal dividing wall between passengers filled with cubby holes. This is particularly disgusting, because BMW had always marketed their vehicles as 'drivers cars' (and still do, with their recent jabs at Autopilot and future Autonomy with a "The Future of Driving Will Always Include Drivers." campaign) but now put an inordinate amount of attention on rear seat 'comfort and convenience' for passengers instead. Perhaps some day BMW will decide to bring back 'The HIRE' series to promote their cars.

Their 'Virtual Co-pilot' is called 'Companion'. It is not just Autonomous, but Dynamic... supposedly. Hmmm.. Can you tell I have always felt BMW was full of [BOLSHEVIK]...? Really, their duplicity reminds me of how newspaper, radio, and television reporters act as if everything on the internet is EViL -- except their OWN website, of course.

 

[JeffK]

I was not talking about miles/minute, since I couldn't imagine how to measure that for a cellphone.

Thank you kindly.

You'd have to see the post we were both referring to for context. A poster was trying to say that a car with a smaller battery would charge faster. My argument was 0-100% doesn't matter when minute by minute at a supercharger the larger battery is receiving more charge and therefore more miles/min.

The analogy was that a cell phone battery and a Tesla may take the same time to charge and yet the Tesla has far more energy. Smaller battery is not "better" because the time from 0-100% might be shorter overall.

 

[Red Sage]

We aren't referring to "C rate" but raw kWh over time with the same chemistry or maybe we should say "miles/minute" if it makes you feel any better . At a supercharger the P100D will gain more miles/min than an S60. As far as the miles/min rate, they are not the same.

That sounds better to me than the '80% in half an hour' metric. 80% of 30 miles is considerably less than 80% of 215.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

It is actually higher, my mental arithmetic was off.

If you wish to calculate yourself, just look up the efficiency of the motorcycle 2-stroke used as generator and from there plug in numbers. Or you can simply realize that the combustion losses in the generator are ignored in an MPGe calculation.

Can you ptovide your calculations? 60MPG(e or otherwise) seems awfully high for any vehicle powered by an ICE.

 

[Red Sage]

Can you ptovide your calculations? 60MPG(e or otherwise) seems awfully high for any vehicle powered by an ICE.

Hence, my point that MPGe is unduly weighted in favor of vehicles that include an ICE somehow. All I know is that I don't like the way it is done. You can see the formulas used listed here:

Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia

 

[JeffK]

Can you ptovide your calculations? 60MPG(e or otherwise) seems awfully high for any vehicle powered by an ICE.

He might be referring to a hybrid, the 2016 Toyota Prius Eco gets 58 MPGe city.

 

[SageBrush]

If I wanted a gilded, quilted, buttoned, pillowed, leathered, draped, tufted, folded, bunched, or laced interior in my car

What a line!

My hat is off to you, RedSage

 

[SageBrush]

He might be referring to a hybrid, the 2016 Toyota Prius Eco gets 58 MPGe city.

Does the EPA really give an MPGe number to an ICE only car, or are you being cute here ?

 

[JeffK]

Does the EPA really give an MPGe number to an ICE only car, or are you being cute here ?

A prius is not ICE only... They are hybrids.

 

[Red Sage]

Does the EPA really give an MPGe number to an ICE only car, or are you being cute here ?

A prius is not ICE only... They are hybrids.

I go by the combined fuel economy rating, which is 58 MPG for the 2016/2017 Toyota Prius Eco. It is a hybrid. The battery pack remains tiny. It is not a plugin. But there is a 'not counted' or 'undocumented' (by the EPA anyway) all electric 'reserve' that allows for about 1 mile of range once you run out of gas. Once again, the 'e' in MPGe is for an equivalent cost to operate, not an equivalent amount of energy consumed. For a given amount spent to travel a particular distance, a fully electric vehicle will typically go much further than an ICE, Hybrid, or plugin Hybrid. But the MPGe figure doesn't make that fact plainly apparent at all.