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Everything Electric Sydney (February 9-10-11, 2024)
- Thread starter evbee
- Start date
I went in yesterday and was surprised how busy it was too - had to wait in line just to sit in an MG and BYD - something I've never thought I'd ever do
Overall was better than I expected; a bit disappointed about the VW ID Buzz being absent but also appreciate the individual owners who brought in their own vehicles for people to sit in where the manufacturer didn't attend. Good mix of vehicles, motorcycles, personal transport (e-scooters and e-skateboards) as well as lot of home charging brands making an appearance
He's a very smart guy, and his message about planning the transition to 100% renewables I 100% agree with,. But his unkept look, his little proletariat hat, and some of his comments are a bit too Marxist and extreme to resonate with the mainstream.You might need to translate that comment for us…
He just needs a bit of 'teal-ing' .
Just my opinion, dont take it too seriously. He's the hippy version of tony seba.
On the mammal total weight thing, he was going on about total car weight of Australian cars exceeds to weight of all mammals combined, which he implied was a bad thing. I don't know why?.
In the 100% renewable world, we'll have surplus energy, so cars are likely to get bigger and more of them, not smaller and less of them.
Saul Griffiths is a more accomplished public speaker than many of the panellists, but my biggest disappointment was that many of them couldn’t succinctly answer questions or clearly articulate a point. They’d go off-track, or make a point they thought was clear but probably lost on the audience because it lacked context or had embedded assumed knowledge in it. Or was just a rambling answer that wasn’t actually an answer to the question asked.
Being a well-intentioned amateur is fine, but there is a reason why people do training for public speaking and media engagements. It is a skill that requires training and practice, and self-taught Youtubers mostly don’t have it. They are OK doing pre-records to make their videos, but live Q&A is not the same. Having those skills makes a material difference to the effectiveness of your communication.
While I generally liked the panel sessions, and there were some genuine experts up there who could speak well, I think next year they really do need to raise the competency and professionalism bar for those they want to put up on stage. Otherwise it harms the credibility of the event.
Being a well-intentioned amateur is fine, but there is a reason why people do training for public speaking and media engagements. It is a skill that requires training and practice, and self-taught Youtubers mostly don’t have it. They are OK doing pre-records to make their videos, but live Q&A is not the same. Having those skills makes a material difference to the effectiveness of your communication.
While I generally liked the panel sessions, and there were some genuine experts up there who could speak well, I think next year they really do need to raise the competency and professionalism bar for those they want to put up on stage. Otherwise it harms the credibility of the event.
Interesting.. obviously the way CHAdeMO has gone and I assume Tim would be on top of it. My understanding is the CCS standards allow AC or DC, and obviously the Korean manufacturers (and reportedly Tesla) have gotten 2-way chargers in the car working.
For a home with solar it makes sense to have some form of centralised two-way inverter, (DC inputs from solar and car, DC outputs to battery and car, and AC outputs to house and maybe grid) though suspect it's going to mean purchasing a new inverter and possibly expensive cabling if the meter/ inverter is on the other side to the garage.
But I would have thought AC might make sense (and would be much cheaper) in commercial settings. (Eg. Say a factory/office where the workplace provides free/cheap daytime charging on the quid pro quo they can redraw power in the late afternoon until the employee goes home to minimise peak grid usage)
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The mix of panellists is a tricky one for the organisers. It looked to me like the more popular sessions were with those that had a higher Youtube / journalist / "celebrity" profile - particularly with Robert Llewellyn attending - which makes perfect sense. The sessions with industry experts, consumers are less familiar with those people, and without the celebrity drawing power I'd expect them to have had smaller audiences. I don't want to comment on the knowledge of specific Youtubers to audience questions as I didn't witness that myself, suffice to say that they need to market themselves and their channel as a number one priority and some may not have as much lived EV ownership experience as you might expect nor have they actually attended EV displays / drive days etc where you get any and all questions from the public.
For a first up effort getting speakers on the other side of the globe, I think the UK-based organisers had a tough task and did a great job. Can't fault the topic selection at all. They'll get feedback on which panellists attendees liked and didn't like and leverage that in 2024. Meanwhile they're also juggling organising 5 more events this year. Kudos to them.
Being on the panel for the V2G session (I run a retail energy pricing business with V2X hands-on experience using an Ioniq 5 leveraging Amber market-linked pricing and automation software), it's difficult to keep it real/practical/simple for many attendees who don't even own an EV whilst also divulging what's actually possible to do now, soon and how the financials actually can stack up, which is what the average attendee wants to know.
It seems to me that most actually working on V2G believe that DC V2G will win out over AC. From a technical purist perspective they're likely right as adding in high power AC bidirectional capability adds expense to every V2G capable EV when more than 50% of EV owners will probably never use it.
All the EVs with V2L obviously have AC bidirectionality and Hyundai V2G trials in the Netherlands are bidirectional AC. However presumably they're limited to just 16A single phase export. That's probably fine for budget EVs but isn't sufficient to power a fully electric home.
Feels like Beta v VHS. AC bidirectionality may get some early wins because the costs are lower when you can use existing off-the shelf dual AC input hybrid inverters for well under $5k to power your home and/or top up a smaller stationary battery. You can't generate meaningful income from V2G if you can only export at a rate of 2-3kW to the grid (after household consumption).
Economies of scale will get the DC bidirectional charger pricing down fairly quickly so will likely be the choice for those who really want to use their EV to power their home and make some dollars on the side exporting to the grid. Those stations should be 7kW to 22kW. The sort of power you need to profit from the narrow periods when you get paid handsomely for helping the grid.
Our home makes over $900 a month with Amber leveraging a two-way network tariff trial in Ausgrid using ~100kWh of batteries. Whiile that's mostly stationary storage, if your EV was capable of 22kW of output, credits in the hundreds per month would certainly be possible if you're in the right location and have the right kit.
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It seems to me that if the car manufacturers can work out how to get the existing drive inverter to do double-duty as a V2X inverter when stationary, that would mean minimal additional expense.
Very nice, but that must be something in the ballpark of $100k worth of battery and inverter?
Chuq
Active Member
That's interesting.. I saw the panel he was on in the Megatheatre and he was consistently getting applause. He knows both the technical detail *and* how to get the message through to everyday people - an important combo.
Total cost was about $30K as it's a custom low voltage lithium battery pack I built myself from low cost prismatic cells (technically 2 separate packs - one with new cells and one with lightly used cells). So sub 5 year payback. But yes, if it was all Powerwall 2s then ~$100K.
Of course when we're talking an EV with V2X you can consider the 40-60kWh of usable storage as free with the car, so using it for V2G is all about the V2G hardware costs and access to sufficient returns to make it worth cycling the battery.
My monthly returns are not as important as the export and import rates which are what makes the V2G economics stack up (or not). Last 6 months average rates for selling/exporting was 42c per kWh and buying/importing was 14 cents. Those rates would be achievable for anyone regardless of battery capacity or whether it was in an EV or standalone storage on the same plan, network and tariff using a simple daily schedules for charging/discharging.
Clearly I'm trying to show that it's possible to make the numbers stack up today. What we as an industry need to do - if we want consumers to engage with V2G (and even V2H) - is make sure that the price signals are sufficient (to cover the setup costs, battery cycling and any time/effort involved) that people will indeed engage. Of course, the easier the electricity regulators, networks, retailers, EV manufacturers and V2G solution providers make it to get the financials to work (ie. "value stacking") with minimal complexity and effort, the more likely we will get the adoption numbers AEMO and others in the renewable space are hoping for from V2G to support a 100% renewable future. It's ceratinly a struggle to do that with stationary battery in Australia today. The "free" storage in an EV will certainly take away a big part of what is stopping consumers from getting onboard but certainly there are more barriers of adoption to pull down across the country.
Agreed. There are still the challenges of multiple AC standards around the globe which adds complexity/cost to vehicle manufacture but if solar inverter manufacturers can readily handle that, it's not necesarily a big deal.
To prove your point, the MG4 will output 7kW on single phase. That's pretty impressive from one of the cheapest EVs on the market. So clearly the additional cost isn't that significant.
Interesting times ahead. Whomever wins the V2H/V2G battle, I still believe that (AC bidirectional for) V2L will be useful for many EV owners and the majority of EVs will offer it in 3-5 years time, at least as an option.
Looks like Fully Charged is targeting a February 2024 return to Sydney.
fullycharged.show
Fully Charged LIVE Success in Sydney! - Fully Charged Show
Dan Caesar celebrates the successful launch of Fully Charged LIVE in Sydney last weekend and looks ahead at the events to come this year.
fullycharged.show
Chuq
Active Member
They've said the UK crew doesn't attend all the international events (especially after the first one, and especially Australia) but I wonder if the timing has anything to do with Robert Llewellyn wanting to visit family in Australia over summer?Looks like Fully Charged is targeting a February 2024 return to Sydney.
Fully Charged LIVE Success in Sydney! - Fully Charged Show
Dan Caesar celebrates the successful launch of Fully Charged LIVE in Sydney last weekend and looks ahead at the events to come this year.
That post also refers to 8 events per year. I'm guessing two out of either a 2nd EU one, 2nd US one, or NZ.
Stealth hitches was there but I don’t recall seeing any other accessories businesses. There was an open area in the hall where people could ride e-scooters that was fenced off. There wasn’t much genuinely empty space, but yes they could have fit more exhibitors in.
Events like this are horrendously expensive to put on. They are paid for by the exhibitors (who also then spend more to fitout their stands), sponsors and ticket sales. Free entry means the sponsors and stall holders need to stump up more, which they are almost certainly not going to do for a first-time event, otherwise the event organiser risks having no stallholders.
I received an email invitation to complete a survey on this event and I would encourage everyone who attended to do so.
My feedback was primarily:
My feedback was primarily:
- Disappointing the major car manufacturers were not there but hopefully there next year
- Too many YouTubers on panels. They are mostly well-meaning amateurs with no real expertise and no media training to provide succinct answers to Q&A. Need more real experts on panels - people who are professional practitioners in this field, but also know how to communicate. Rosie Barnes was great.
- Do not invite the Electric Viking back. Ever.
Blue heaven
Fair Dinkum Tesla
What was the issue with Electric Viking at FCL? My issue with his videos is his expert ability to stretch a 2 minute story into a 10 minute ramble. If I’m going to watch an EV YouTuber I want as much factual and useful content as possible in the shortest time.
Why's that a surprise? FCL basically started on YT, though at least Robert had an acting background.
