Evie EV charging networks

[Candleflame]

I've seen the preheating message come up more than half an hour out from a charger. Was in the winter, first leg of the trip, and didn't appear to have affected consumption, near as I could tell.

What I have noticed more is that consumption was really high after supercharging, gradually dropping back to a normal level over quite some distance, like 150km. I normally get about 140-something Wh/km consumption on the highway (SR+), but after supercharging I noticed it was over 200 briefly, dropped to 190 fairly quickly and then just very slowly decreased back to 150-ish. I might guess that the batteries are being cooled by the refrigeration (/heat pump /AC) system because they're hot after supercharging, but without an ODBC dongle I am only guessing. This effect was most evident (and above numbers) in summer but I still saw the same thing to a lesser degree in the winter. And no elevation changes were near nil and braking was not a factor (highway Mel-Adel). Will try to photo the energy graph next time.

In terms of the 50kW charger discussion I usually see low-40s at these chargers. Sometimes use the Horsham 50kW units (Chargefox) because we're stopping there for lunch anyway.

if you just leave, and supercharge after 20min or so then the battery may be cold and the car will try to heat it to 45C. With newer Model 3s the issue may be worse as you have a cold battery and put your heat pump on so all the heat immediately gets used to heat the cabin - so your battery struggels to reach operating temperature. The issue gets further made worse by you preheating the battery for supercharging but the car immediately using that heat too to warm the cabin.

Batteries dont run that hot during supercharging and certainly dont when being over 55-60%. The batteries have 3 modes - Cold, warm/operating temperature (45C), and hot (>45C or so where the battery is actively cooled). While you supercharge in low % the car puts the fans on to keep the battery at the operating temperature level or maybe just slightly above it. Possibly if you unplug the car at 50% and immediately drive off you may still have the cooling fans running for a a couple of minutes but you are kinda provoking this behaviour at that point....

 

[moa999]

And (not a surprise given ownership) Evie has chosen to use Tritium chargers for the next round of rollouts.

Looks like most sites will be 2x50kW

Evie Networks and Tritium ink deal for 300 new EV chargers in Australia

Tritium to supply more than 300 EV chargers at more than 150 new Evie Network destinations. Maps included.

thedriven.io

 

[OzVic]

And (not a surprise given ownership) Evie has chosen to use Tritium chargers for the next round of rollouts.

Looks like most sites will be 2x50kW

Evie Networks and Tritium ink deal for 300 new EV chargers in Australia

Tritium to supply more than 300 EV chargers at more than 150 new Evie Network destinations. Maps included.

thedriven.io

"Upgradeable to 75kw". Why not just do it? ffs

They better negotiate an SLA too. Same or next day fix. With Tritium's past record with their 50kw machines, they'll effin need it.

 

[Nobody Famous]

Why not just do it?

They will probably be able to milk more taxpayer $ to upgrade it in the future

 

[technerdx6000]

There should be a law all DC fast chargers must be minimum 75kW. Basically all EVs on the market today can hit these speeds.

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

They probably don't want to pay the electricity grid's demand charges to allow them to charge at 75kW. They're unbelievably expensive, and if they're funded for 50kW, they'll request enough for 50kW.

 

[cafz]

There should be a law all DC fast chargers must be minimum 75kW. Basically all EVs on the market today can hit these speeds.

That would be a daft law.

It would essentially say: it's illegal to install a DC charger anywhere it's not economic to obtain a grid connection to support 75kW, so you have to install an AC charger!

 

[technerdx6000]

Admittedly I didn't really flesh out the thought of that law. It just stemmed from frustration of using 50kW chargers which in my opinion are painfully slow. However, if such a law were to be implemented, the grid would also be required to economically support them. There are a couple of ways to do this and considering we have 350kW chargers being installed, and most 50kW chargers having a 22kW AC option available too, 75kW should be a walk in the park.

Also I will say 75kW is less important to have in urban areas compared to highways.

 

[cafz]

What does work is writing the rules for these kinds of grant programs such that to qualify, you have to meet some minimum charging rate standard. That's what they do - this particular round specified a minimum of 50kW and two cars simultaneously, so that's what they're going to get.

Also I will say 75kW is less important to have in urban areas compared to highways.

Yes (this funding round was specifically for urban and suburban areas, so more 50kW units over fewer 75kW ones would seem to make sense).

 

[aegidius]

More chargers, and particularly more redundancy, is way more important than 50 vs 75kW IMHO. Having two is a step in the right direction, as long as it's actually two stalls and not just one CCS2 and one Chademo plug.

 

[moa999]

From the release it's two stalls given its 300 units over 150 sites.

If be hoping that they try and install one CCS2/Chademo and one CCS2/CCS2 over 3-4 spots
Or even drop Chademo altogether at some locations where another one is closeby.

 

[cafz]

This is the requirements that ARENA put on the funding:

3.3 The Applicant must be able to demonstrate to the satisfaction of ARENA that the Project described in the Application:
a. Involves construction of Fast Charging Stations. Each Fast Charging Station must have at least two designated BEV charging bays and be capable of charging two cars concurrently at 50kW or above;
b.Utilises plug types at the Fast Charging Stations which are in accordance with the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) technical statements and / or codes of practice;
c. Only includes Fast Charging Stations located within a single Geographic Zone as per Table 1 of these Guidelines;
d. Requests the Available ARENA Grant amount specified in Table 1 for the nominated Geographic Zone;
e.Will deliver at least the minimum number of Fast Charging Stations in Satellite Areas as set out at Table 1;
f.Sources Renewable Energy or Green Certificates to cover the electricity usage in all Fast Charging Stations;
g. Develops new Fast Charging Stations only. A Project that increases the scale or number of Fast Charging Stations at a site with existing (i.e. operating or announced as at 15 February 2021) Fast Charging Stations will not be eligible;
h. Will not restrict public access to the Fast Charging Stations (such as by providing priority, reserved or exclusive access to a business or business fleet);
i. Each Fast Charging Station site includes at a minimum:
›designated car parks for two (or more) BEVs with lane markings; and
›lighting.
j. Will commit to install and commission all Fast Charging Stations within 2 years of executing the Funding Agreement with ARENA for the Project.
k. Will comply with any applicable legislation and regulations.

So: they require two bays capable of charging two cars simultaneously at 50kW. Plug types they punt to FCAI, whose FCAI Technical Statement on Ev Charging Standards for Public Recharging Infrastructure specifies both CCS2 and CHAdeMO.

 

[Candleflame]

They probably don't want to pay the electricity grid's demand charges to allow them to charge at 75kW. They're unbelievably expensive, and if they're funded for 50kW, they'll request enough for 50kW.

that is not true. Even exisiting tritium sites can easily support 96kw.
You can use the 50kw charger, but then 2 other people can also plug in and draw 23kw each.

It is a product of lazyness and putting people in charge of rollout and companies who do not drive EVs nor understand a thing about charging speeds.

It makes me really angry - I spend a lot of time driving up and down the Bruce Highway and 50kw charging is a PAIN. 75kw charging is not, despite it not maximizing the power output of a station. Noone uses AC outside of emergency charging anyway.

Imagine people driving their Taycan up to Townsville from Brisbane. What... drive 300km and then spend 2h charging your 95kwh battery? bonkers.

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

that is not true. Even exisiting tritium sites can easily support 96kw.
You can use the 50kw charger, but then 2 other people can also plug in and draw 23kw each.

Perhaps you misunderstood what you're replying to. Demand charges are excruciatingly expensive. They pay an amount based on the peak load their site handles (think of it as a peak in kW, even though in reality it's the maximum kWh the site consumes in any 30 minute interval that month, and it's paid for the entire month). They then pay a separate (and kinda token) amount for total usage (in kWh).

The more kW the charger can drain at any moment, the higher their demand charges will be.

The only ways for a large power consumer like a charging station to pay less is to buffer usage through a battery to reduce peak load, or throttle charging speeds to reduce peak load. Which in practice means taking a 75kW charger and running it at 50kW.

When usage at a site is negligible, the demand charges are a major financial impost. When usage increases to the point where the site is used multiple times per day with occasional queueing, the demand charges become a smaller component of their bill relative to the actual usage charges & the revenue will begin to pay its way. At that point they can increase speeds & maybe reduce prices. And at that point it pays to have a throttled 75kW+ charger that could be dialled up at a negligible cost.

 

[Chuq]

As much as 50 kW is significantly more painfully slower than say 120-150 kW, which is what Tesla owners would be used to, I don't think it is beneficial to prevent them from being installed. Lots of new EVs being sold today (Ioniq, MG ZS EV, 40 kWh Leaf) are going to be charging at 50 kW for a majority of their charge curve and are not going to see any significantly gain from a faster unit. Similarly there are many older EVs (particularly older Leafs) which are not even going to hit 50 kW.

A 50 kW "paves the way" for faster units later on. Often the local site owner/council is unfamiliar with the technology - installing one allows them to become familiar with the size of the unit, the look and feel, the noise, and how often it would be used. More than half the cost of installing a fast charger is the underground cabling/civil works.

Once a 50 kW unit is in, it is much easier and relatively cheap (compared to a new site) to upgrade to a faster unit in the future. Swap the hardware and upgrade the grid capacity (if necessary).

I can imagine that the 50 kW NRMA network provides a wealth of information so far as how busy certain routes are. I would like to think that NRMA supports companies like Chargefox and Evie to identify the best sites to install additional ultra-rapid units, for example.

Regarding these Evie sites, I would have expected them to install a single RTM-175 unit with two cables and have it downrated to 100 kW (or whatever was necessary at the site). The only downside is that it then couldn't charge two CCS vehicles at once, but on the occasion you're the only EV there it means you could charge at 100 kW. I guess the saving grace of their decision is that these are primarily urban sites and will rarely be used on road trips.

Also another tidbit - these locations do NOT impact Evie's ultra-rapid plans. They are still planning the 4-5 ultra-rapid (350 kW) locations on the outskirts of major capitals (as shown on their original map - which, as an aside, I notice is quite out of date!) and presence of these 50 kW locations doesn't affect that.

 

[Candleflame]

the issue is that the people who preach about 50kw being good and needed etc are the ones who dont actually have to use them or use them i.e. when they go shopping. yes they are great for that. But they are not for long distance traveling.

 

[Shallowal]

the issue is that the people who preach about 50kw being good and needed etc are the ones who dont actually have to use them or use them i.e. when they go shopping. yes they are great for that. But they are not for long distance traveling.

It seems to me that you're not listening to the arguments. Sites and equipment that will support over 50KW are apparently very expensive to build and the EV population doesnt really exist to support them. At the moment, the whole EV charging paradigm is definitely not based on a return of investment model, or at least its a very long term view.
If a site or area only has power infrastructure to support 50KW, then I would rather a Fast charger gets installed there than leave large gaps in the charging network.
I live in a country area and am often travelling on the highways. The NRMA single stall 50KW chargers at Nabiac and Mittagong have been all that have saved me from getting towed on a couple of occasions.

 

[moa999]

And remember this latest round of Arena funding was for city chargers.
This provides much greater access to 50kW units which are obviously far better than AC units.

The discussion about demand charging I think explains why Evie have their differentiated pricing for 50/350kW units (fast/ ultra-fast).

Over time as utilisation improves I'd hope that the rates (and the difference) declines as that demand charge and infrastructure costs get amortised over a greater number of charging sessions.

 

[Vostok]

If a site or area only has power infrastructure to support 50KW, then I would rather a Fast charger gets installed there than leave large gaps in the charging network.
I live in a country area and am often travelling on the highways. The NRMA single stall 50KW chargers at Nabiac and Mittagong have been all that have saved me from getting towed on a couple of occasions.

I agree. I’ve used the Nabiac charger once and while it was a bit slower than a Supercharger I didn’t think it was that bad. And way better than a gap in the network if that’s the alternative.

 

[Candleflame]

It seems to me that you're not listening to the arguments. Sites and equipment that will support over 50KW are apparently very expensive to build and the EV population doesnt really exist to support them. At the moment, the whole EV charging paradigm is definitely not based on a return of investment model, or at least its a very long term view.
If a site or area only has power infrastructure to support 50KW, then I would rather a Fast charger gets installed there than leave large gaps in the charging network.
I live in a country area and am often travelling on the highways. The NRMA single stall 50KW chargers at Nabiac and Mittagong have been all that have saved me from getting towed on a couple of occasions.

a site which can support 50kw (which usually just fluctuated between 35kw and 42kw) can also support 75kw. They already do. As ive stated you can pull 93kw from them at the moment.
If demand charges are an issue put a little solar panel next to the station to top up the other 25kw. Or a battery. But they are not. Im not being unreasonable here talking about 130kw or 250kw charging.
Either way 75kw is not that much for a 2000 person town anyway. 75kw is NEEDED to make EV long distance useable in remote Australia.
Your 400km trip might be big in Europe or Victoria but in i.e. Queensland or WA it is nothing and you cant tell someone to wait 2 hours while their car charges.