Fair tug of war?

[CMoZ]

*shrug* 1400lbs of bolt on accessories isn't really that unusual on one of those. GVWR is 14000lbs on the F450

My truck weighs 9800 pounds. As it came from Ford. There is no way a 7000 lb vehicle of any sort is going to pull it if I apply the brakes. My truck will be putting 10000 lbs down to pavement. The other vehicle 7000.
Just the way it works. Sorry!
As far as the GVWR on the F450 14000 lbs was placed on it to keep it in class 3. Bragging rights.
Ford and everyone else knows its a class 4 truck.[/QUOTE]

lol you're violently agreeing with me on the base premise but we disagree on the details. Base variant of the F450 base trim is 8600lbs ( I know there's a larger one that weighs more obviously that's what you got) but you claimed 10000, that's where the 1400lbs of bolt ons come in. and Sorry if you truck weighs 9800lbs you're not putting 10000lbs to the ground with the brakes locked up. you're putting 9800lbs that said there's no way the CT is pulling that. Towing dead weight and rolling weight are different things. pulling dead weight is limited by your weight regardless of how much power you have, rolling weight is another animal. an F450 that weighs 8600lbs isn't going to pull more than 8600lbs dead weight but can tow a 32,000lb trailer (rolling weight), a CT that weighs 5000lbs isn't going to tow dead weight over 5000lbs

 

[ricohman]

My truck weighs 9800 pounds. As it came from Ford. There is no way a 7000 lb vehicle of any sort is going to pull it if I apply the brakes. My truck will be putting 10000 lbs down to pavement. The other vehicle 7000.
Just the way it works. Sorry!
As far as the GVWR on the F450 14000 lbs was placed on it to keep it in class 3. Bragging rights.
Ford and everyone else knows its a class 4 truck.

lol you're violently agreeing with me on the base premise but we disagree on the details. Base variant of the F450 base trim is 8600lbs ( I know there's a larger one that weighs more obviously that's what you got) but you claimed 10000, that's where the 1400lbs of bolt ons come in. and Sorry if you truck weighs 9800lbs you're not putting 10000lbs to the ground with the brakes locked up. you're putting 9800lbs that said there's no way the CT is pulling that. Towing dead weight and rolling weight are different things. pulling dead weight is limited by your weight regardless of how much power you have, rolling weight is another animal. an F450 that weighs 8600lbs isn't going to pull more than 8600lbs dead weight but can tow a 32,000lb trailer (rolling weight), a CT that weighs 5000lbs isn't going to tow dead weight over 5000lbs[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with that.

 

[EV Promoter]

In my opinion ( convince me otherwise ) the ONLY factor to determine "FAIR" is MSRP to MSRP full stop.

I do agree totally. I can't post links or my post goes in moderation, but if you reckon the msrp of a ford f150 with the top towing figures i posted, you end up with the same 70,000$ approx of the CT trimotor. Perfect comparison. And the CT tri will win, on the mere numbers.

Only doubt is if to choose the ford 4x2 with more rated towing weight of the 4x4. But i'm unable to evaluate the weight issue.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Ford totally screwed up. Their response should have been "Sell us a Cybertruck and we'll make a youtube video of the rematch [Troll face]".

 

[Barklikeadog]

Ford totally screwed up. Their response should have been "Sell us a Cybertruck and we'll make a youtube video of the rematch [Troll face]".

Ford should have set a date and time. You show up with your cybertruck, we will bring an F150 right off a dealer lot.
When the Cybertruck gets there, Ford people state the rules. Each vehicle will pull a similar 10klb trailer. The finish line
is 1000 miles away. See you at the party. Ready set GO!

 

[CoyoteJim]

Model X against F150 4x4
Watch Ford F-150 4x4 Lose In Tug Of War Battle To Tesla Model X

 

[scaesare]

Yeah, I'd guess about 6000ft-lbs. Depends on if that 2.9s number includes 1-ft rollout or not.

The Roadster was said to be capable of 10K Nm at the wheels, which is ~7400 lb/ft. Assume at least that if CT is using similar drivetrain.

 

[Electruck]

Model X against F150 4x4
Watch Ford F-150 4x4 Lose In Tug Of War Battle To Tesla Model X

Uh CJ, nobody wants to see your truth? Where's the fake rage.....?!? LOL!

 

[mongo]

The Roadster was said to be capable of 10K Nm at the wheels, which is ~7400 lb/ft. Assume at least that if CT is using similar drivetrain.

At least indeed, since Roaster has 250+ MPH top speed. Expect CT would be geared lower.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Thought exercise for you truck mechanics: wouldn't letting an ICE truck have a 1mph head-start actually be a dis-advantage?

- at 1mph, the engine will be well below idle, not produce anywhere near max torque, and start to lug.
- the torque converter of an automatic transmission only has to transfer enough torque to move it's rated towing capacity, not the max torque of the engine. That's why it's possible to burn out your transmission.
- so no matter what the gearing ratio is, the ICE truck will never develop the full calculated torque.
- thus, despite what Jason Fenske explained, it isn't all about weight, or even engine torque, since the transmission is the weakest link.

I'd love it if Jason saw this post and re-calculated what's the max torque the F150's transmission would permit to transmit to the wheels (start the assumptions from its tow rating).

 

[Daniel in SD]

Thought exercise for you truck mechanics: wouldn't letting an ICE truck have a 1mph head-start actually be a dis-advantage?

- at 1mph, the engine will be well below idle, not produce anywhere near max torque, and start to lug.
- the torque converter of an automatic transmission only has to transfer enough torque to move it's rated towing capacity, not the max torque of the engine. That's why it's possible to burn out your transmission.
- so no matter what the gearing ratio is, the ICE truck will never develop the full calculated torque.
- thus, despite what Jason Fenske explained, it isn't all about weight, or even engine torque, since the transmission is the weakest link.

I'd love it if Jason saw this post and re-calculated what's the max torque the F150's transmission would permit to transmit to the wheels (start the assumptions from its tow rating).

The max torque is a function of the stall speed of the torque, the torque multiplication of the torque converter and the crawl ratio (1st gear ratio x transfer case ratio x final drive ratio). Towing capacity doesn’t really have anything to do with it. Many manufacturers have done silly stunts with their trucks pulling ridiculously heavy loads (a380, 1 million pound train, etc.). With an automatic transmission the wheel speed is decoupled from the motor speed by the torque converter, max torque at 1mph will be nearly identical to max torque at 0mph.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

The max torque is a function of the stall speed of the torque, the torque multiplication of the torque converter and the crawl ratio (1st gear ratio x transfer case ratio x final drive ratio). Towing capacity doesn’t really have anything to do with it. Many manufacturers have done silly stunts with their trucks pulling ridiculously heavy loads (a380, 1 million pound train, etc.). With an automatic transmission the wheel speed is decoupled from the motor speed by the torque converter, max torque at 1mph will be nearly identical to max torque at 0mph.

But that's the theory. What is happening to the viscous material inside a torque converter when the engine is putting out max torque, yet the wheels aren't turning correspondingly? Like trying to tow a brick wall? How long can this be done before you smell burning and the transmission breaks down?

The electric motor stalling might also overheat, but if the coolant is independently pumped then the overheating can be limited.

 

[ricohman]

But that's the theory. What is happening to the viscous material inside a torque converter when the engine is putting out max torque, yet the wheels aren't turning correspondingly? Like trying to tow a brick wall? How long can this be done before you smell burning and the transmission breaks down?

The electric motor stalling might also overheat, but if the coolant is independently pumped then the overheating can be limited.

Nothing will happen to the converter at a dead stall. If you have a powerful truck you start snapping u joints and other bits.

 

[mongo]

But that's the theory. What is happening to the viscous material inside a torque converter when the engine is putting out max torque, yet the wheels aren't turning correspondingly? Like trying to tow a brick wall? How long can this be done before you smell burning and the transmission breaks down?

The electric motor stalling might also overheat, but if the coolant is independently pumped then the overheating can be limited.

The fluid in the torque converter is continually refreshed via the pump. Drag racers use specially built converters to avoid ballooning due to the forces generated.

The new PMSR won't easily overheat due to the oil cooled stator and only needing to maintain current in the windings. An AC induction would cook since the rotor can't shed heat well even with coaxial cooling and it needs to induce current in the core constantly.

 

[Ehninger1212]

But that's the theory. What is happening to the viscous material inside a torque converter when the engine is putting out max torque, yet the wheels aren't turning correspondingly? Like trying to tow a brick wall? How long can this be done before you smell burning and the transmission breaks down?

The electric motor stalling might also overheat, but if the coolant is independently pumped then the overheating can be limited.

The transmission fluid would get very hot. it would still circulate and get cooled on the return side of the radiator or external transmission cooler.

Also as @ricohman says most the torque converter is not the weakest link so other stuff would break first. My money would be on U-Joints.

or Traction haha

 

[CoyoteJim]

Uh CJ, nobody wants to see your truth? Where's the fake rage.....?!? LOL!

The interesting thing about it was that the hitch point is lower on the MX than the F150. So the back of the Ford would have been pulled down for more traction while the back of the MX would have been lifted for less. But I think the MX does outweigh the F150 by at least 100 lbs.

 

[coleAK]

Really with a tug a war on asphalt it comes down to weight and tires. The heavier vehicle with stickier tires will win every time. Torque and HP have little to do with any of it.

This was large factor With the X vs f150 the x has Soft sticky tires and the truck had what looked like cheep MT tires, most likely hard compound at a much higher PSI.

my 1994 80 series land cruiser built out on 37’s weights just under 7k lbs and has ~190 hp. I guarantee it would pull a CT or any production f150 down the street backwards spinning tires.

And most Unimogs are <240 hp... they will pull a building off foundation.

 

[coleAK]

The interesting thing about it was that the hitch point is lower on the MX than the F150. So the back of the Ford would have been pulled down for more traction while the back of the MX would have been lifted for less. But I think the MX does outweigh the F150 by at least 100 lbs.

I noticed the same thing about the attack point. Problem is there is almost no weight in the back of a traditional pick up.thats why people put at least 500 lbs of sand in the bed in the winter.

 

[Ehninger1212]

I noticed the same thing about the attack point. Problem is there is almost no weight in the back of a traditional pick up.thats why people put at least 500 lbs of sand in the bed in the winter.

I think this is the CLOSEST to fair comparison. Although there are still so many variables as you have pointed out.
Also the crew cab raptor has a curb weight of 5,697 and the highest weight model x curb weight is 5,531.
So the raptor has a 167lbs weight advantage.

The raptor also appears to have a wider contact patch, possibly more traction.

I think the main thing we can gather from this video is that the Cybertruck will pull any half ton ICE truck.

 

[Ehninger1212]

In the end though.. this comparison means nothing. I once pulled a 1997 2wd f-350 dually with my 1984 toyota 4x4 in a tug of war. What did that prove? NOTHING.

 

[willow_hiller]

What's the best solution this friction/weight problem?

Replace the tires with cogs and place both vehicles on a rack railway?