Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[Max*]

I disagree.
View attachment 183665

You see where I said that there is no "fault" with the recall.
I said it's a PR grab, I've been saying that since the start of the thread.
And I gave a statement that they issued a mass recall over 1 loose screw (and someone corrected me, that it was due to a mishandling tool) in 1 car, they issued a safety recall for ALL Model S's. Not by VIN number, ALL of them. Come on.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Boourns]

One of the better articles about the crash and AP:

The technology behind the Tesla crash, explained

This is excellent. Especially:

It may be tempting to describe this as a driverless car crash, but don't give in. There's a big difference between assisted driving technologies and full automation, and what we have here is the former.

 

[zhenya]

Who cares what the drivers behavior was or what he wears to bed... it has no bearing on the speed at the time of the accident which police say was probably 65mph (the posted speed limit) based on what the car did after hitting the truck. If he's a serial speeder means nothing if at that moment he was doing the speed limit.

To answer the previous question about a black box. Yes, Teslas have logs which state timestamps, speeds, which features were enabled, which pedals were pressed when, etc.

Put in the context of the other information we have about this driver, it makes a pretty convincing profile of someone who isn't exactly the most attentive driver in the world. We wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise.

 

[SR22pilot]

This is not unreasonable in my opinion. Make TACC available anywhere, but restrict AP to divided freeways (the ones that have no side traffic).

As a very avid user and an AP fan, I would take that as a reasonable compromise

You realize that AP worked fine. It was automatic emergency braking that didn't respond and you do NOT want to deactivate that.

 

[snellenr]

Maybe he could have stopped instead. He also noticed that the driver was inattentative ("watching Harry Potter on TV"). So shouldn't have he done the responsible thing and stopped, honked his horn and waited? The Tesla had the right of way, and was in the far outer lane.

If you saw a pedestrian, on the sidewalk using his smartphone walking very quickly across the entrance of a store parking lot you want to go into, would you try to drive in front of him? Would you be better off waiting or honking?

Sorry, trucker is the one at fault, not Mr. Brown or Autopilot.

The other possibility is that the driver had already turned across the empty road - committed to the turn and blocking oncoming traffic - before the car came into view.

In that case, it's the car driver's obligation to avoid the collision, not the truck driver. The driver of a fully-loaded semi can't do much of anything at that point to prevent the collision - he's in a low gear and only going 5-10 mph at that point.

Pointless to argue about it - I assume we'll find out what happened eventually.

 

[hacer]

Since you are the person who sees this behavior, perhaps you could duplicate it on camera?

Well, I'm not the person that posted, but I've seen this behavior too. There is a particular road near me (note: not a divided highway) where when you crest the hill, the road curves ever so slightly to the right. As AP approaches the crest, it loses sight of the road markings in the distance since they are down hill and the car is pointing uphill. It usually tries to steer ever so slightly left (towards oncoming lanes) at the crest. The good news is that the driver (me) follows Tesla's recommendations and holds on to the wheel and pays attention, and I resist it's turn and instead guide it slightly right as required by the actual road (which causes AP to beep and shut off). It's easy to win the steering battle with AP, it doesn't have much torque. I've used AP at that location 4 times because I want to see if the car "learns" from the experience and gets better (e.g. a GPS identified mark where loss of lane markings has consistently seen driver input different from AP decisions, so a "hint" is added for that spot perhaps). So far there is no learning, but I'm confident that Tesla gathers data from AP operation where driver input differs significantly and that they will use it improve AP.

That is the big reason NOT to geo-fence AP, nor disable it (or even recommend not using it) for roads where it is imperfect. Presently it doesn't recognize stop lights or stop signs (certainly TACC doesn't either), but that's not a reason to use neither on roads where they are few and far between. It only means that you are the driver and you need to take responsibility. AP doesn't change that.

 

[Todd Burch]

You see where I said that there is no "fault" with the recall.
I said it's a PR grab, I've been saying that since the start of the thread.
And I gave a statement that they issued a mass recall over 1 loose screw (and someone corrected me, that it was due to a mishandling tool) in 1 car, they issued a safety recall for ALL Model S's. Not by VIN number, ALL of them. Come on.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, we will. I view it as a proactive safety measure because I think Tesla doesn't want to end up in a situation like GM, in which there were known safety problems but they were covered up, resulting in deaths. Recalls typically negatively impact a brand's image. I'm not sure I see how issuing a recall is done to improve a brand's image.

 

[JeffK]

The other possibility is that the driver had already turned across the empty road - committed to the turn and blocking oncoming traffic - before the car came into view.

In that case, it's the car driver's obligation to avoid the collision, not the truck driver. The driver of a fully-loaded semi can't do much of anything at that point to prevent the collision - he's in a low gear and only going 5-10 mph at that point.

Pointless to argue about it - I assume we'll find out what happened eventually.

lanes are probably 15 ft wide (maybe less like 12 ft), two lanes = 30 ft

5 mph = 7.33 ft/s

30 ft / 7.33 ft/s = 4 seconds at 5mph to cross those lanes if he was already in the lanes he could have potentially cleared them

 

[MXFLA]

You realize that AP worked fine. It was automatic emergency braking that didn't respond and you do NOT want to deactivate that.

Very few people, even on a Tesla forum, seem to understand that this is a problem with TACC. But saying the TACC or the AEB didn't work is not as sexy as blaming it on autopilot. Autopilot is just auto steer and TACC. No one has suggested the car bounded out of its lane, it just didn't stop.

 

[zhenya]

lanes are probably 15 ft wide (maybe less like 12 ft), two lanes = 30 ft

5 mph = 7.33 ft/s

30 ft / 7.33 ft/s = 4 seconds at 5mph to cross those lanes.

Plus the 48' for the length of the truck. The front might cross in 4 seconds, but it'd take the rear another 6.5 seconds to clear the roadway.

 

[kort677]

What's makes you conclude there was a hard panic stop?

this is not in reference to this particular incident, the comment was made saying that the braking system in the tesla would not cause skid marks and I replied a hard, panic like locking the wheels type of stop would indeed cause skid marks.

 

[kort677]

Irrelevant, police already stated that he was going the speed limit, which was 65.

that's something I haven't come across, could you provide your source for this info?

 

[JeffK]

Plus the 48' for the length of the truck. The front might cross in 4 seconds, but it'd take the rear another 6.5 seconds to clear the roadway.

Therefore you're saying the truck should not move unless he can see 10.5 seconds of 65mph for oncoming traffic (about 1000 ft).

If the hill is before that then that's another argument for a traffic light, if not then that means he saw the tesla coming and tried to go for it anyway.

 

[msnow]

Not at all irrelevant because it speaks directly to the driver's behavior - not so much in the willingness to speed (which we all do) but in the lack of awareness to stop himself from being caught so often.

Ok, that doesn't even make sense. It's irrelevant in this case because he wasn't speeding. He was aware enough this time to not speed. If you're saying it shows a lack of awareness in general then you've just proved why most times past behavior is not allowed as evidence in court unless it's the same exact thing which this isn't.

 

[hacer]

Nope, first line, it's according to the Florida Highway Patrol: DVD player found in Tesla car in Florida crash, authorities say

That same source says ".. there was no camera found, mounted on the dash or of any kind, in the wreckage." But we know that it is an AP equipped car, so we know that there was a camera, the AP camera, that they couldn't seem to find. Probably the owner's dash cam is near where the AP camera is since the viewpoint from it suggests such a nearby mounting point.

Possibilities include that the information is inaccurate, incomplete, the search through the wreckage was poorly performed, or the crash scene was disturbed before the investigation.

The bottom line is that we don't know (and may never know) the true facts of this situation.

 

[JeffK]

that's something I haven't come across, could you provide your source for this info?

Tesla driver using Autopilot dies in crash; investigation underway
half way down the page

Possibilities include that the information is inaccurate, incomplete, the search through the wreckage was poorly performed, or the crash scene was disturbed before the investigation.

these are probably crushed beyond recognition as they're near the roof level.

 

[kort677]

Tesla driver using Autopilot dies in crash; investigation underway
half way down the page

thanks for that, I wonder how they came to that conclusion lacking any sort of evidence of braking.

 

[JeffK]

thanks for that, I wonder how they came to that conclusion lacking any sort of evidence of braking.

They can tell exactly how far it travelled afterwards and the damage caused by hitting the pole... plus the exact number is in the logs when the NHTSA pulls them.

 

[SR22pilot]

I've said about all I can say about this tragedy except one thing.

Joshua Brown was One of Us. He was a Tesla owner, an enthusiast, a friend and supporter of the company. Just like Us. This tragedy saddens me. I wish it hadn't happened. I fear more such incidents will happen. One thing we can all do, especially if you are a member of an owners club, is make sure owners are educated. Make sure they know that Mobileye has indicated it doesn't support cross traffic. That is a huge deal imho, and means you don't use driver assistance features unless you're on a freeway. At the very least, make sure your friends and acquaintances as well as you yourself are completely familiarized with Tesla's instructions for safe use of these technologies. Be careful out there.

Please separate things out and realize that the issue in this accident is automatic emergency braking. You DO want that working at all times. It will not save you from traffic crossing in front of you but it does help prevent rear end collisions. Lane keep assist did not fail. Automatic emergency braking didn't respond because this type of accident is outside its current capabilities. People on this thread constantly mix this up. If the car had veered off the road then it would be a different matter. It didn't. I don't know of ANY car on the road that covers all emergency situations. Far back in this thread someone posted an excerpt form a Mercedes manual on Histrionic which said the same thing i.e. that lateral traffic and stopped vehicles weren't covered.

 

[sillydriver]

That is the big reason NOT to geo-fence AP, nor disable it (or even recommend not using it) for roads where it is imperfect. Presently it doesn't recognize stop lights or stop signs (certainly TACC doesn't either), but that's not a reason to use neither on roads where they are few and far between. It only means that you are the driver and you need to take responsibility. AP doesn't change that.

Speaking as the guy who made the geofence prediction, I hope my prediction is wrong! My fear is that the regulators will force it, since I believe there is at present no way to prevent AP/TACC from doing the same thing with the truck under the same circumstances. The problem is solved if all AP users keep their focus on driving, but will that solution satisfy the regulators, lawyers, and Tesla's insurance provider? Personally I enjoy AP, but I treat it as if it was a student driver in control of my car: I'm always looking out for situations that could trip it up, and I put my hands on the wheel when these arise. Separately, I'm amazed AP doesn't do better with hills, as you say. I live in the hilly Virginia piedmont where AP is useless on about half of all two-lane roads because of its behavior going over blind crests. There is one spot going east into Middleburg where the road goes straight but the car consistently jerks right at the crest of the hill. I often test new firmware releases at this spot to see if they've fixed the problem but they never have.