Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[msnow]

The issue for me is whether Tesla is doing enough, through its software and hardware, to ensure drivers are paying attention to the road while using a system that imbues a false sense of security. In my opinion the answer is no. Tesla is reiterating its written disclaimers in its blog post, however disclaimers don't protect consumers - they protect Tesla. What is Tesla doing to protect the users of its system from being distracted? There is a great potential for driver distraction with Autopilot and it's Tesla's responsibility to try and mitigate driver distraction as much as possible in its implementation of this system - after all, Tesla says the driver must be paying attention. What is Tesla doing to ensure the driver is paying attention? A disclaimer is insufficient. The NHTSA is concerned with what manufacturers are doing to keep occupants of vehicles safe, not necessarily with disclaimers and fine print which do nothing to protect occupants but are an attempt by the vehicle manufacturer to protect its own legal liability.

I still love my Model S and am 100% behind Tesla's mission, I just feel their implementation of this feature is flawed and needs to be re-evaluated.

Pure speculation on my part but I expect Tesla will enforce "hands on the wheel" at all times very soon.

 

[kort677]

He was already blocking the road at that point. He had two options then: come to a full stop and hope the driver could maneuver around the front of the cab, and back out of the way, or hit the gas and hope that the car could maneuver around behind him.

with all due respect to you, I think speculation or attempting to fix or deflect blame from the what the trucker did and didn't do is just noise at this point.

regardless of the cause of the collision what I think we on this forum need to focus on is the reaction of the technology in the car and what the driver of the tesla did and didn't do. let the authorities and lawyers hash out the details of what the truckers culpability was.

 

[DrManhattan]

Pure speculation on my part but I expect Tesla will enforce "hands on the wheel" at all times very soon.

So.....cruise control? I don't think that will happen.

 

[kort677]

not to be morbid but this crash involving a semi while isn't exactly the same as the tesla crash it is receiving 1/100 of the attention the media is giving the tesla accident. why? it isn't a tesla and it didn't involve new technology
Several dead, over 20 injured after bus collides with tractor trailer in Florida

 

[zambono]

with all due respect to you, I think speculation or attempting to fix or deflect blame from the what the trucker did and didn't do is just noise at this point.

regardless of the cause of the collision what I think we on this forum need to focus on is the reaction of the technology in the car and what the driver of the tesla did and didn't do. let the authorities and lawyers hash out the details of what the truckers culpability was.

Like you said we need to be aware of the limitations. Just like the truck, it could have been another vehicle, an animal, road debrie etc any of those and autopilot would have plowed through, you need pay attention

 

[msnow]

So.....cruise control? I don't think that will happen.

Autosteer in particular but why would people drive hands free with TACC (if that's what you mean)?

 

[nikielizabeth]

Ugh...I know this is satire, but someone, somewhere thinks that this is acceptable while driving their Tesla in autopilot.

Tesla Car's Owners

Are you sure about that? I'm not a coffee drinker but I'm using my own empirical evidence based on McDonald's apple pies. As a kid I remember the filling used to be scalding hot. Somewhere along the line (maybe they changed recipes) the apple pies are just warm now. Granted not exactly scientific but my Spidey sense tells me the McDonald's coffee lawsuit outcome played a role.

Just going by what was written on the internet - could be correct, could be a farce. Either way, I am a dunkin donuts girl and that crap is always scalding hot.

 

[deonb]

You can take over in less than 2 seconds because you are paying attention. Sometime not paying attention, as is suspected in this case, will take significantly longer to react.

You didn't say it was about distraction. Your point was "hands off the wheel":

Except that studies have shown that it takes between 5 to 8 seconds to react when you're hands are off the wheel

But if I'm not paying attention, why the 5 to 8 second number? That seems arbitrary. Harry Potter is over 2.5 hours long.

So I suspect you're quoting the number from text message studies where it shows people are generally distracted for 5 seconds at the minimum while reading & replying to texts. However, that has nothing to do with hands on or off the wheel, and everything to do with spending time on an operation that takes at least 5 seconds to complete.

If you're watching the road and ready to take over, you can move your hands into place within 0.7 to 1.5 seconds, depending on your level of surprise. Same as with braking - It doesn't take 5 seconds to press the brake just because your foot was not on the brake pedal to start with.

 

[dhanson865]

Intersections are built-in confrontations. This one appears much worse -- a coffee / truck stop that should really only be available to 1 side of traffic. Was the truck driver going down this local road, or stopping at the stop ?

A roundabout or traffic circle here would have eliminated the confrontation, as well as relocating the incorrectly placed Gas/Coffee stop to something slightly off the roadway, accessible to both sides, and still visible from the road. But that costs more.

Roundabouts are somewhat new to the Southeast US. I've never seen a high speed roundabout. Do they do those on 65 MPH roads or are you talking about making a roundabout and lowering the speed for that?

 

[Nikxice]

[QUOTE
The trucker started to turn but paused when he saw the Tesla. The truck's pause led Brown to assume he would pass in front of the turning, but paused, truck so he clicked his right turn signal for the AP to change lanes. Simultaneously, the trucker assumed Brown would pass behind his truck so he GAVE IT THE GAS and then saw the Tesla change lanes.[/QUOTE]

The final verdict on the alleged Tesla lane change will be informative. If it is true, it would likely indicate the Tesla driver had an awareness of his future path of travel blockage. The problem arises with that potential awareness. It seems incongruent with the evidence that the Tesla never applied the brakes.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Roundabouts are somewhat new to the Southeast US. I've never seen a high speed roundabout. Do they do those on 65 MPH roads or are you talking about making a roundabout and lowering the speed for that?

Presumably they would have to lower the speed limit going into the roundabout (someone from Europe/England may be able to help with this) as the entry into the roundabout is an automatic yield. Most roundabouts I've seen here in the western US are 45 mph roads without variation in speeds, and works pretty well (3 lanes too). I would assume a 65 mph road would have to have speed limits going down to 45 or so, going into the roundabout.

 

[JonathanD]

Same as with braking - It doesn't take 5 seconds to press the brake just because your foot was not on the brake pedal to start with.

And reportedly no braking at all right up to the point of impact. Which makes me think he was truly staring at a movie, or otherwise incapacitated.

Still don't know how we reconcile that with the truck driver's assertion that he went from the left lane to the right lane...

 

[JonathanD]

The final verdict on the alleged Tesla lane change will be informative. If it is true, it would likely indicate the Tesla driver had an awareness of his future path of travel blockage. The problem arises with that potential awareness. It seems incongruent with the evidence that the Tesla never applied the brakes.

Agreed. I assume the car would have logs of just about everything in the car, including turn signal activation and autopilot behavior, which should be able to confirm or deny what the truck driver thought he saw. Again, the human brain can remember things weird when we don't consider them a big deal at the time.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Don't forget GPS

 

[Larry Hutchinson]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile (and safe) for locals to search for the dashcam?
It has to be there somewhere since the police didn't find it — although I suppose it could have been smashed to rubble and swep away.

 

[kort677]

Roundabouts are somewhat new to the Southeast US. I've never seen a high speed roundabout. Do they do those on 65 MPH roads or are you talking about making a roundabout and lowering the speed for that?

in the US most states almost never use roundabouts on high speed roads and if they do use them on higher speed roads they will drop the limits far ahead of the upcoming roundabouts.
roundabouts are out of favor in many places in the US because in more heavily trafficked areas they have been found to be more of a danger than a signalized intersection. In NJ about 30 years ago they began to remove the majority of their roundabouts because their studies showed what I mentioned about their being a cause of further congestion and are prone to causing accidents.
nonetheless the rural intersection where the crash occurred wouldn't lend itself to a placement of a roundabout.

 

[22522]

Presumably they would have to lower the speed limit going into the roundabout (someone from Europe/England may be able to help with this) as the entry into the roundabout is an automatic yield. Most roundabouts I've seen here in the western US are 45 mph roads without variation in speeds, and works pretty well (3 lanes too). I would assume a 65 mph road would have to have speed limits going down to 45 or so, going into the roundabout.

I understand auto pilot is disabled in roundabouts. If you think about how radar is reflected from oblique angles - the radar goes blind in roundabouts.

Orthogonal crossing with parallel travel will give you better signal to noise on other vehicles.

 

[kort677]

I understand auto pilot is disabled in roundabouts. If you think about how radar is reflected from oblique angles - the radar goes blind in roundabouts.

Orthogonal crossing with parallel travel will give you better signal to noise on other vehicles.

correction, afaik autopilot wouldn't automatically disengage when approaching a roundabout, it would need to be manually disengaged. if you didn't disengage it I couldn't predict how it would react but I'd bet a red screen of death would appear.

 

[kort677]

Pure speculation on my part but I expect Tesla will enforce "hands on the wheel" at all times very soon.

I certainly hope not, there is a segment of people who you cannot design safety for.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I understand auto pilot is disabled in roundabouts. If you think about how radar is reflected from oblique angles - the radar goes blind in roundabouts.

Orthogonal crossing with parallel travel will give you better signal to noise on other vehicles.

Not sure if it automatically disengages, but I've always hit the brakes going into the roundabout looking for traffic. Suspect kort677 is right.