Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[1208]

Rqzmu6zlhl4xoqnrguqh

• Zybd1201
• Jul 1, 2016

FHP diagram of the crash.

A couple of things are clear to me:

Terrible tragedy.

Terrible intersection.


Intersections are built-in confrontations. This one appears much worse -- a coffee / truck stop that should really only be available to 1 side of traffic. Was the truck driver going down this local road, or stopping at the stop ?

A roundabout or traffic circle here would have eliminated the confrontation, as well as relocating the incorrectly placed Gas/Coffee stop to something slightly off the roadway, accessible to both sides, and still visible from the road. But that costs more.

I can't recall any roads with junctions like that in the UK. To be able to cross the path of 2 lanes of a highway/motorway is not only not allowed but not possible. Such places have traffic lights, interchanges or roundabouts. Too dangerous.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I can't recall any roads with junctions like that in the UK. To be able to cross the path of 2 lanes of a highway/motorway is not only not allowed but not possible. Such places have traffic lights, interchanges or roundabouts. Too dangerous.

Yes, on many levels American roads are just terrible compared to Europe.

 

[Canuck]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile (and safe) for locals to search for the dashcam?
It has to be there somewhere since the police didn't find it — although I suppose it could have been smashed to rubble and swep away.

Good point. Check out 1:12 of this video where the reporter finds a headlight, which is much bigger than the dashcam, yet was missed by the police and investigators...

The deceased driver, Joshua Brown, posted a dashcam video in April, only about a month before this crash:

Just because the police didn't find the dashcam, are we to expect it doesn't exist? They didn't even find a large headlight! And why would he remove the dashcam, especially after being tweeted by Elon about it and being very pleased about that?:

Elon Musk on Twitter

I never remove my dashcam - who does? I know the dashcam was at the height to be involved in the crash, and likely is smashed, but the SD card could have survived the impact intact, or at least sufficiently intact to obtain the data from it.

 

[jdw]

Pure speculation on my part but I expect Tesla will enforce "hands on the wheel" at all times very soon.

I don't think that would change much in many situations, especially on divided highway cruising. In this case, it wasn't lane keeping that caused the Tesla's portion of the accident, if anything, it was cruise control. The combination of lane keeping and cruise control may have allowed the driver to lose focus on the situation, but I doubt if holding the wheel while being distracted would have changed anything.

Most accidents, including this one, require multiple things to go wrong. In this case, poor road design, a truck pushing it's luck crossing a divided highway and a driver who may not have been paying sufficient attention (worst case) or who thought the truck was stopping and he could get around it (best case), all came together in tragedy.

Idiot videos on YouTube aside, I think most Tesla drivers are well aware that they are driving, not the car.

 

[Zybd1201]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile (and safe) for locals to search for the dashcam?
It has to be there somewhere since the police didn't find it — although I suppose it could have been smashed to rubble and swep away.

No. Don't do this or encourage this. It is neither necessary, respectful, or appropriate and could place whoever doing it at risk of injury or possibly criminal charges (trespass, evidence, etc). I am not a fan of FHP but let them do their job and please stay away. :-(

 

[Canuck]

Yes, on many levels American roads are just terrible compared to Europe.

But is that a fair comparison?

If the 28 members of the European Union were considered a single country, it would be the third most populous country on earth (knocking the US down to 4th), with a little over 500 million people, living in area that is less than half the size of the entire United States.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but the accident seems to have occurred in a somewhat rural area. The more rural the road, the more likely you won't see an overpass or a roundabout. Europe has so many people, and so little land, that it's not surprising that you have many more overpasses and roundabouts. Come to Canada where we have very few people, and the world's fourth-largest country by land area and I'll show you some pretty darn scary roads in rural areas, where logging trucks go flying threw at high speeds and a round about would be laughed at. I'm just happy if there's enough room for two lanes sometimes. And this is the just drive to my cabin!

No. Don't do this or encourage this. It is neither necessary, respectful, or appropriate and could place whoever doing it at risk of injury or possibly criminal charges (trespass, evidence, etc). I am not a fan of FHP but let them do their job and please stay away. :-(

I guess then we'll see the reporter charged for picking up that headlight?

If you search on public land, or with the consent of the landowners on privately owned lands, and in a safe manner (not on the highway!), I don't see any problem with it. As for being disrespectful, if I was his next of kin I would be appreciative if someone found it and provided it to the authorities. The more lives that can be saved by a proper analysis of all evidence, the better. I would certainly want my dashcam found if I was the driver. Finally, the land is not roped off in the news videos so the FHP search of the area is over. But if it's not, of course do not cross any marked off areas of investigation.

 

[4SUPER9]

When bad things happen I have always agreed with the view that blame is shareable but responsibility is not.

In this case the left turning driver had the responsibility to make the turn safely. This is a fundamental rule of driving in North America and one that, as a motorcyclist, I find the biggest risk. Whether I'm riding a motorcycle or driving a car I am always vigilant of irresponsible left turning vehicles.

The blame will be shared but the trucker was responsible, in my opinion.

I am not so confident. Sure, the truck driver has a responsibility to enter the intersection at the proper time. If, however, the driver of the Tesla had a clear opportunity to stop, which it seems fairly obvious that he did, he should have. He could have prevented this horrible tragedy simply by watching the road, as any other person without AP would have done. Just because the truck driver did not drive perfectly does not make him entirely liable.

 

[brucet999]

Small portable DVD player was found in the Tesla, no dashcam was found nor mounted:

DVD player found in Tesla Model S in May 7 crash -Fla officials
----------
The Florida Highway Patrol said on Friday that it found an aftermarket digital video disc (DVD) player in the wreckage of a Tesla Motors Inc Model S involved in a fatal May 7 crash.

"There was a portable DVD player in the vehicle," said Sergeant Kim Montes of the Florida Highway Patrol in a telephone interview.

She said there was no camera found, mounted on the dash or of any kind, in the wreckage.
----------

Dash cams are generally mounted on the windshield just in front of the rear view mirror. Since the entire top 1/3 of the Tesla was ripped away in the crash, it is not surprising that no dash cam would have been found inside the car. The wreckage of the windshield and front cross-member of the roof quite likely would not have retained the dash cam through such a violent collision event. It may well have been swept up and discarded along with the rest of the glass and plastic parts of the debris field.

 

[msnow]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile (and safe) for locals to search for the dashcam?
It has to be there somewhere since the police didn't find it — although I suppose it could have been smashed to rubble and swep away.

Or the local ABC News reporter that picked up the headlight could have put it in his pocket for some future "exclusive".

 

[omarsultan]

Check out 1:12 of this video where the reporter finds a headlight, which is much bigger than the dashcam, yet was missed by the police and investigators...

That is an assumption -- why would the police care about a headlight in this scenario, it would not seem to be relevant. The fact that a headlight is still there seems more like an indicator or sloppy cleanup by the DoT or whomever does accident cleanup in FL.

 

[msnow]

I certainly hope not, there is a segment of people who you cannot design safety for.

It's the old 80/20 rule but I suspect they won't have a choice.

 

[gothmog3]

I can't recall any roads with junctions like that in the UK. To be able to cross the path of 2 lanes of a highway/motorway is not only not allowed but not possible. Such places have traffic lights, interchanges or roundabouts. Too dangerous.

There are some roads like this in the UK - and they are very dangerous - and as alluded to earlier, they are rural.

Sections of the A1 north of Alnwick towards Berwick have "junctions" where traffic can cross what is essentially a dual carriageway with a 70mph speed limit.

 

[Bill D]

The final verdict on the alleged Tesla lane change will be informative. If it is true, it would likely indicate the Tesla driver had an awareness of his future path of travel blockage. The problem arises with that potential awareness. It seems incongruent with the evidence that the Tesla never applied the brakes.

I can imagine Brown being fully aware but not hitting the brake. He may have been focused on going to his right to clear the truck's front bumper but the trucker "gave it the gas" (his words) and accelerated. I've been in similar near-miss situations where I focused on "threading the needle" because I knew hitting the brake wouldn't help and may make things worse for steering.

The biggest mystery in this story is the trucker's assertion that Brown went from the left lane to the right lane. Making that up doesn't help the trucker's position in any way.

The lane change completely removes AP and driver awareness as a factor and makes it like many other non-newsworthy accidents that happen every day.

 

[msnow]

I don't think that would change much in many situations, especially on divided highway cruising. In this case, it wasn't lane keeping that caused the Tesla's portion of the accident, if anything, it was cruise control. The combination of lane keeping and cruise control may have allowed the driver to lose focus on the situation, but I doubt if holding the wheel while being distracted would have changed anything.

Most accidents, including this one, require multiple things to go wrong. In this case, poor road design, a truck pushing it's luck crossing a divided highway and a driver who may not have been paying sufficient attention (worst case) or who thought the truck was stopping and he could get around it (best case), all came together in tragedy.

Idiot videos on YouTube aside, I think most Tesla drivers are well aware that they are driving, not the car.

It's about messaging and getting in front of the issue with regulators. The choice Tesla may be faced with is make it so people can't be "distracted" or shut it down.

This story made the front page of the L.A. Times as well as the Business section. I was at a building supply store this afternoon and this guy comes up to me and says "is your car like the one that killed that guy the other day?" That's the kind of reaction Tesla is going to face in the short term. The average person doesn't know what it is or how it works like you do. To them it's a self-driving car. Tesla will have to do something and I know they will.

 

[NikeWings]

That is an assumption -- why would the police care about a headlight in this scenario, it would not seem to be relevant. The fact that a headlight is still there seems more like an indicator or sloppy cleanup by the DoT or whomever does accident cleanup in FL.

"His wife, Chrissy VanKavelaar, said they continue to find parts of the car in their yard eight weeks after the crash.
“Every time it rains or we mow we find another piece of that car," she said." DVD player found in Tesla car in fatal May crash

Let's hope that a sloppy clean-up does not equate to a sloppy investigation. There are conflicting opinions regarding the potential presence of a dash cam, but if so, an SD card in the wrong [media] hands would make for another layer of complication.

 

[Canuck]

That is an assumption -- why would the police care about a headlight in this scenario, it would not seem to be relevant. The fact that a headlight is still there seems more like an indicator or sloppy cleanup by the DoT or whomever does accident cleanup in FL.

Yes, this is an assumption on my part. Practically all of my posts contain assumptions on my part.

But considering this crash is the subject of a NHTSA investigation, I would think the headlight, that is pretty much intact, is something that they would want as part of their investigation. You may be able tell a lot from exhibits like this such as the forces of impact, angles of impact, mechanism of detachment, etc. etc. I know the headlight did not take the impact, but it became detached -- why and where, and where it ended up, may be relevant and even important in determining issues in this crash.

I would think it's pretty rare to be disposing of any evidence at all regarding a major NHTSA investigation. Also, you don't usually rely on third parties unfamiliar with exhibit retention to cleanup the scene. It's not difficult to do a proper scene analysis, and to retain and store evidence for future analysis. In fact, if you fail to do so you can be met with the doctrine of spoliation. I know that there may have been a cleanup before anyone even realized the importance of this crash, but when that happens not only do you try to track down where the cleaned up items went, but you revisit the scene to see if anything was missed during cleanup.

Again, all just assumptions on my part. I could be wrong.

 

[beeeerock]

This is a tragic accident blown out of proportion by the media and TSLA shorts. Let it all settle out. I predict the speed of the car will be well in excess of the posted limit. I expect he was distracted by a DVD player, laptop, phone... whatever - distracted is distracted. The trucker turned when he shouldn't have - perhaps he was blinded by the sun too?

The bottom line is, Mr. Brown was responsible for the actions of his car. He read the disclaimers when he enabled autopilot. So did I. I use it as a means of 'housekeeping' while driving. That is, I let it look after basic lane alignment, speed, and proximity to other cars. I keep my hands on the wheel and I'm aware of what's around me. In fact, probably more aware of what's around me because I'm not forced to keep close track of lane position - more brain CPU cycles available for the mirrors and road further ahead. I remain the one in control and AP just makes it easier.

If I was using old-school cruise control, I'd still be in charge. I wouldn't expect it to slow down for corners (although AP does!). If I used a brick on the gas pedal, I'd still remain aware of what's going around and be the one in control... I'm the driver, I'm the one responsible. Technology, be it AP, Cruise or the good ol' brick, doesn't excuse me from that.

All this bleating about responsibility lying elsewhere from the truck driver and Mr. Brown is just that - bleating. Trucker was wrong to turn. Mr. Brown was wrong to be distracted and it cost him his life. End of story.

 

[msnow]

Yes, this is an assumption on my part. Practically all of my posts contain assumptions on my part.

But considering this crash is the subject of a NHTSA investigation, I would think the headlight, that is pretty much intact, is something that they would want as part of their investigation. You may be able tell a lot from exhibits like this such as the forces of impact, angles of impact, mechanism of detachment, etc. etc. I know the headlight did not take the impact, but it became detached -- why and where, and where it ended up, may be relevant and even important in determining issues in this crash.

I would think it's pretty rare to be disposing of any evidence at all regarding a major NHTSA investigation. Also, you don't usually rely on third parties unfamiliar with exhibit retention to cleanup the scene. It's not difficult to do a proper scene analysis, and to retain and store evidence for future analysis. In fact, if you fail to do so you can be met with the doctrine of spoliation. I know that there may have been a cleanup before anyone even realized the importance of this crash, but when that happens not only do you try to track down where the cleaned up items went, but you revisit the scene to see if anything was missed during cleanup.

Again, all just assumptions on my part. I could be wrong.

You're NOT wrong. You are 100% right. This sounds like a sloppy investigation. The NHTSA is known for their thoroughness which is why I'm so surprised by this.

 

[Camera-Cruiser]

I've not read all the pages regarding this tragedy, and apologize if this has been said before, whether once or many times. But to me it only warrants a discussion about autopilot is the situation were reversed.

If a Tesla or any other autonomous driven car were to have made a left hand turn into oncoming traffic without properly yielding, then that would be newsworthy. The current car and software do not offer this level of autonomy yet, but someday will. That is when it makes sense to question the software and applicability if involved in an accident of any kind.

I can't imagine this going well for the truck driver. He failed to yield at an uncontrolled intersection. It could have been a 5 year old chimpanzee driving and it the trucker still, should have yielded. Mistakes tragically happen daily.

Being the victim of someone failing to yield to me while legally driving about 50moh, I can tell you that I was fully aware of the car moving from the opposite direction and entering the left turn lane as we approached. He turned left directly into me without any warning instead of fully braking as I thought he would do. Driving is trust based for most of us, and has to remain that way for many more years. I thought he would yield.

I never hit my brakes, But I remember thinking "no, why aren't you yielding?" plus some other choice words milliseconds before impact. A bunch of stuff crossed my mind in milliseconds, but my motor skills never allowed me to move my right foot off the accelerator to the brake pedal in the duration he decided to continue left right into me.

Mr. Brown may have been paying full attention and had the exact same thoughts with just milliseconds of his life left in front of him. All the tech in the world can't do a whole lot if someone turns left in front of you. It's fast.

The DVD player in the story means little to me (and what DVD player continues to play after a crash like this, it must have been a digital file, not a DVD) because I have listened to videos that were being played from both iPads and laptops - not watching them. I do corporate video productions, and the best way to tell if they are on point and accurately telling the clients message is by listening to them. If they sound good, and I understand and hopefully enjoy the message, then the visuals become secondary. Mr. Brown may just have been listening, not watching, and I can't fault him for something we may never know the answer to.

And this story should hopefully end soon, because all that is here, is an illegal left turn into oncoming traffic by a trucker that resulted in the death of a person that happened to be in a Tesla.

 

[Canuck]

All this bleating about responsibility lying elsewhere from the truck driver and Mr. Brown is just that - bleating. Trucker was wrong to turn. Mr. Brown was wrong to be distracted and it cost him his life. End of story.

I get your point but at the same time I think AP 1.0 has some flaws that hopefully this unfortunate accident will help to focus on to avoid similar crashes. Plus, the fact that this crash happened to a 40 year-old Navy Seal, who ran a successful technology company, as opposed to someone less credentialed, makes it even more intriguing, and as such may make people more aware of the limitations of AP so as not to make the same mistake that perhaps he did.

This is important life and death stuff -- sure it was a freak set of circumstances but sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction and if it can happen once, it can happen again. So let's not be quick to blame the media and shorts (not that they're not deserving!). But let's also take a hard look at AP itself since if we can save someone else from the same unfortunate and unlikely set of events then we have not let Mr. Brown's death be in vain. And this thread itself is, I think, doing just that in making people more aware of AP's requirements and limitations.