Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[wdolson]

Expecting a technology to be released only after it can handle *ALL* the edge cases one can think of, is silly and detrimental. If it handles a specific set of use cases, and that is clearly communicated then we should be good to go.

It's going to be a long time before cars can handle every edge situation safely. Aircraft have been on the autonomous flying track much longer than anyone has been working on it for cars. The joke at Boeing was the new flight deck was one pilot and a dog, the pilot's job was to feed the dog and the dog's job was to bite the pilot if he touched anything. Planes can largely fly themselves, but they still run into edge situations where the pilot needs to step in and take control. Many aircraft accidents in recent years were due to the pilots stepping in during an edge situation and making mistakes they shouldn't have made.

The edge situations will be reduced, but don't expect them to be completely eliminated for a very long time. I expect the edge situations will be reduced from around 0.1% now to 0.01% or even 0.001% in the next few years. The best they can do with the remaining edge conditions is to fail as safely as possible.

The driver of the Tesla must have been completely engaged in something else, or possibly asleep. Most people if they are aware they are about to go under a semi trailer are going to duck if they know they can't stop. Nothing indicated the driver did anything to react.

 

[deonb]

It TACC is not designed to notice when someone is coming off a side street into your lane, it should be disabled unless one thinks that it is really rare to have cars enter a road from a side street.

You mean this across all makes and models of all vehicles, everywhere, right?

 

[calleserra]

first of all, condolences to the family of the driver.

the question i have is the timing of the crossing. did the semi just decide to go without waiting for traffic? was it a legal turn?

given that it went under the trailer it may have had already good enough time to cross the road. someone could probably do the math to see if any reasonable person would have reacted sooner & how much time they would have. (off the top of my head, if you're paying attention you would see it assuming a flat road with no elevation changes, though it may take a while for you to register in your mind, and if you're distracted a little bit...)

i think tesla is posting this because they wish their system could have done better and they wanted to be transparent. but others are going to spin this as "omg teslas literally wants to murder you" (like on the level of the exploding air bags).

In California, the rule is once a driver with the right-of-way (in this case the Tesla driver) taps on his brake to avoid colliding with a vehicle crossing its lane (in this case the semi-trailer), the fault is deemed to be that of the semi-trailer driver. The reasoning here is being the driver of the semi-trailer driver, you should know how long it takes to safely pull a left turn in front of an oncoming traffic which has the right of way. You should not turn when it is unsafe or cause the other oncoming traffic to brake merely because you were able to do so and "trust" that the Tesla will slow down to let you complete your turn. That practice is in itself endangering the oncoming traffic which has the right of way. Unfortunately, our Tesla brother didn't appear to have performed avoidance action and was killed. Clearly, the truck driver's fault. Many motorcyclists have died because of this same scenario. If only drivers doing a left turn would have been more responsible and paid more attention.

 

[Drivin]

Why would you disable a safety feature just because it might do nothing in a particular scenario? That's nuts.

If my brakes didn't work in a particular scenario, that is somewhat typical - a car entering my lane from a side street, I wouldn't drive the car.

 

[Drivin]

You mean this across all makes and models of all vehicles, everywhere, right?

Only for those makes and models that would drive on roads in which another car may enter the same road from a side street.

That seems to be a rare occurrence and so maybe will cut down on the applicable cars.

 

[wcalvin]

Autopilot in planes and trains means following a specified course and speed, automatically making corrections for wind etc.; this does not include braking for sudden obstacles Tesla's AutoPilot (a combination of AutoSteering and TACC, not the same thing) includes braking for common obstacles and situations, but cannot replace the driver's judgment for other situations like a truck making a turn against approaching traffic.
That said, I too have noticed that vehicles with empty space can be a problem, as in using Autopark with a jacked-up truck in front of the parking space.

 

[Norfolk Enchants]

Never mind Tesla vs Mercedes AEB systems, It would be interesting to see if any manufacturers at all have an AEB system that can recognize a big semi trailer like this straddled across your freeway lane. I suspect none of them as the forward radar is likely set at the correct height to detect upcoming obstacles at car/SUV bumper height, and the air gap under the trailers is enormous - (probably up to 10m wide and over 1m tall?) - radar or lidar could just pass right through umderneath the trailer body

As I have said before NHTSA needs to mandate proper side underride protection on all these trailers.Would potentially save hundreds of lives each year

 

[JeffK]

It appears there was some sort of gag order or something about this. The news didn't hear a peep about this from anyone from May 7 to yesterday. The cops who investigated the crash didn't talk, the family didn't talk, the truck driver didn't talk, and nobody involved in the investigation talked. What I find amazing is so many people knew about it for close to two months and nobody said anything until the NHTSA released their preliminary report.

What preliminary report? They just opened the investigation three days ago...

 

[John Stuckey]

It would be useful if someone can list all of the current limitations for Tesla Autopilot.

In this case, the system may not be able to recognize a "hollow" structure such as a high bed trailer.

I have had problems with Autopilot as it comes to the crest of a hill. I'm guessing that the sensor/s are facing upward and can't see the road markings past the crest. This could be a big issue if there is a curve right after the crest of a hill.
Cruise control/ seeing cars in front of you on sweeping curves is also a problem.
I too would like to see a thread describing situations to be wary of.

 

[ecarfan]

It TACC is not designed to notice when someone is coming off a side street into your lane, it should be disabled unless one thinks that it is really rare to have cars enter a road from a side street.

What TACC does has nothing to do with vehicles entering the road you are traveling on from a side street. TACC tracks the speed of the vehicle in front of you and adjusts the following distance based on the set cruise speed and the distance interval setting.

The current version of Tesla AP cannot detect vehicles entering your road at right angles to your car until they are in front of your car, and by then it may be too late for AEB to minimize the impact (the side ultrasonic sensors are only useful at low speeds because of their limited range and long latency). Of course if the driver is alert and watching the road and side streets it may be possible to avoid a crash, or maybe not. It's best not to use TACC except on freeways or divided highways with long stretches where cross traffic is restricted. If you do use TACC where cross traffic is possible you should be fully alert and aware of your environment.

This crash was caused by two human drivers who simultaneously failed to exercise proper driving judgement at the most basic level. Tesla AP is not responsible for the crash. If just one of the two drivers had shown good judgement the crash would not have occurred or the damage would have been minor and there would have been no loss of life.

The sad story is being completely overblown with news headlines that contain the words "Tesla", "Autopilot", and "Fatality" (or some variant thereof. The average reader instantly assumes that the Tesla "self driving car" killed its driver. Which is completely incorrect.

 

[stopcrazypp]

TACC in other cars is not just about following a vehicle. It will notice and act when someone suddenly shows up in your lane, or if you are coming over a hill and suddenly see a stalled/slow moving car in the lane.

Besides, I don't think vehicles entering a road from a side street are purely lateral intrusions - it isn't as if they drive 100% laterally and then make a 90 degree turn into your lane.

It TACC is not designed to notice when someone is coming off a side street into your lane, it should be disabled unless one thinks that it is really rare to have cars enter a road from a side street.

By your standards, all TACC systems should be disabled.

Even the lastest and greatest from Mercedes (the system touted by Tesla naysayers as leapfrogging Tesla's) can't handle slow merging cars.
1st drive of 2017 MBZ E-class: lane keeping is STILL inferior Tesla's

A general TACC limitation across multiple automakers (I have listed Mercedes, BMW, Volvo) is that they will not respond to a stationary vehicle that suddenly appears (whether because they are rounding a corner, a hill, or a leading vehicle moves out of lane):
1st drive of 2017 MBZ E-class: lane keeping is STILL inferior Tesla's

 

[deonb]

Only for those makes and models that would drive on roads in which another car may enter the same road from a side street.

That seems to be a rare occurrence and so maybe will cut down on the applicable cars.

You are free to say that TACC should be removed until it can detect lateral incursion - please be so kind as to link us to where you also complained to Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Cadillac, Toyota, Lincoln, Hyundai, Infinite, Renaul, Nissan, Jaguar, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, Jeep and Ford about the same issue.

Oh, and if you can find some of your posts that date back to 1999 when Mercedes first released TACC world-wide in their S-class, that would be fabulous.

The last 17 years must have been tough for you. Just thinking of all those left-turn accidents where there was just absolutely no way for drivers to avoid. Well except by operating their car as instructed - but no other way to avoid it.

 

[supratachophobia]

Yes, but that's not a good thing. That's not how we want corporate America to behave.

Instead of McDonalds making the coffee safer, they just went and made themselves immune to liability. But probably as many people burn themselves nowadays, just less people sue, because their lawyers know they can't win.

Is that really all we want Tesla to strive for? To give better warnings to make themselves more immune from legislation?

Uhhh, no. McDonald's did change their coffee temp from 180' down to what was suggested several times in audits, <140'. Everyone thinks that lawsuit was frivolous, but go read the Wikipedia article on it.

 

[S'toon]

In Europe truck side guards are mandatory as a safety feature.

I'm reading Boston wanted to make them mandatory, don't know if it is now or not.

I'm thinking that the guards lower down may have been "seen" by the AP sensors and it may have reacted accordingly.

 

[Stoneymonster]

This is really sad.

Scary thing is that the truck driver continued on driving, and so did the Tesla for a short while, and it only stopped because the AP camera on the top windshield got destroyed.

Imagine if something goes through the windshield killing the driver, but all AP systems remain operational - the car would just keep on driving...

Elon's comment about the radar confusing with street signs doesn't make any sense. The purpose of radar is to measure the distance to an object, and it clearly should have distinguished the truck a few feet off the ground vs. a street sign 20 feet above the road.

Radar is far more complicated than you think. It's not a 3D scanner.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Uhhh, no. McDonald's did change their coffee temp from 180' down to what was suggested several times in audits, <140'. Everyone thinks that lawsuit was frivolous, but go read the Wikipedia article on it.

The Wikipedia article is the one that said they didn't change the temperature:
"Since Liebeck, McDonald's has not reduced the service temperature of its coffee. McDonald's policy today is to serve coffee between 80–90 °C (176–194 °F),[33] relying on more sternly worded warnings on cups made of rigid foam to avoid future liability, though it continues to face lawsuits over hot coffee."
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ggnykk]

Mobileye issued the following statement on the fatal Tesla collision:

"We have read the account of what happened in this case. Today's collision avoidance technology, or Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) is defined as rear-end collision avoidance, and is designed specifically for that. This incident involved a laterally crossing vehicle, which current-generation AEB systems are not designed to actuate upon. Mobileye systems will include Lateral Turn Across Path (LTAP) detection capabilities beginning in 2018, and the Euro NCAP safety ratings will include this beginning in 2020."

Year 2018 seems like a long time. A lot of life can be saved (for all car manufacturers) if LTAP can be implemented earlier.

 

[ZAKEEUS]

In California, the rule is once a driver with the right-of-way (in this case the Tesla driver) taps on his brake to avoid colliding with a vehicle crossing its lane (in this case the semi-trailer), the fault is deemed to be that of the semi-trailer driver. The reasoning here is being the driver of the semi-trailer driver, you should know how long it takes to safely pull a left turn in front of an oncoming traffic which has the right of way. You should not turn when it is unsafe or cause the other oncoming traffic to brake merely because you were able to do so and "trust" that the Tesla will slow down to let you complete your turn. That practice is in itself endangering the oncoming traffic which has the right of way. Unfortunately, our Tesla brother didn't appear to have performed avoidance action and was killed. Clearly, the truck driver's fault. Many motorcyclists have died because of this same scenario. If only drivers doing a left turn would have been more responsible and paid more attention.

As a truck driver, I disagree, I may be looking at this wrong, but on google maps, it appears that the Tesla was coming over a hill. If he was indeed going over 85mph. The truck would have started that turn before the Tesla was in sight. It would take a truck 4-5 seconds to complete that turn after slowing down or stopping.

 

[omarsultan]

It appears there was some sort of gag order or something about this. The news didn't hear a peep about this from anyone from May 7 to yesterday. The cops who investigated the crash didn't talk, the family didn't talk, the truck driver didn't talk, and nobody involved in the investigation talked.

The alternative is that the cops etc recognize this is a simple car accident--90 people die each day in car accidents so the event itself, sadly, is not unique. Face it, if the driver was in a MBZ using Distronic Plus, this incident would not garner any attention.

 

[SR22pilot]

If my brakes didn't work in a particular scenario, that is somewhat typical - a car entering my lane from a side street, I wouldn't drive the car.

The brake worked fine. Only the automatic braking didn't work because it was a case it wasn't designed to handle. Your statement says you shouldn't drive. I'm sorry but there are few systems, including the most advanced autopilots in the world, that handle all the corner cases. However, in the cases where they do work they can, properly used, dramatically reduce accidents. For pilots I recommend the video Children of the Magenta Line.

If you feel this way you need to avoid ALL cars that have automatic emergency braking. I suggest you start by aiming hatred at Mercedes and work your way from there. AEB is becoming quite common and I don't know one system that handles ALL cases. Sorry but if you apply this throughout your life you will have little in it. Just about everything has a case that isn't covered by the design.