Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[studiojon]

It's limited to 90 MPH. But if her account is accurate it would seem there would need to be more than a 5 MPH delta between their speeds.

Mike

Actually 92mph is the "takeover" warning speed.

Yes I agree - for someone to be "surprised" at how fast a car passes them implies a delta-v of more like 15mph or greater - only 6mph would have been possible maintaining autosteer.

 

[JeffK]

Actually 92mph is the "takeover" warning speed.

Yes I agree - for someone to be "surprised" at how fast a car passes them implies a delta-v of more like 15mph or greater - only 6mph would have been possible maintaining autosteer.

Let's keep in mind that besides the word of the "witness" who never saw the accident, the police said the car was likely only going 65 mph. The black box with the logs is the only thing that knows for sure. Maybe it'll be listed in NHTSA's final report.

 

[Canuck]

Based on that witness account,

Again, there is no witness account that we have seen as to the speed he was traveling. There is only hearsay from someone who said what he was told buy a witness as to speed. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Without going back and looking what the source was for this information, it was stated he was going 65 MPH (the police report?) at the time of impact. I assume this was obtained from somewhere and not just speculated. The video recently posted of the scene with emergency workers on site showed the Model S sheared off to the top of the doors but the emergency flashers were operational. Is it possible investigators could have simply looked at the instrument cluster and seen that the system was set on 65 MPH? If not, as stated above Tesla knows what speed the vehicle was traveling (just as they knew AP was activated at the time of impact) and perhaps they gave that info to authorities either willingly or under court order?

Mike

 

[DrManhattan]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that the driver in this case, as an acclaimed user and promoter of AP, was fully aware of the limitations of Autopilot? Evidence suggests otherwise. I see he posted a YouTube video of a trip from Boston to Orlando where he had his hands off the wheel 90% of the time.

When I say "the message isn't getting across," I mean it's not getting across to many (most?) Autopilot users, who drive with their hands off the wheel at least some of the time. This is directly in contravention of Tesla's warning: "Always keep your hands on the wheel. Be prepared to take over at any time." There are people who drive with their heads down, checking email and whatnot. It's certainly not getting across to the media or the public at large, who discuss this incident as an accident with a "self-driving car."

The problem was not whether his hands were on the wheel. His problem was not looking at his surroundings. If you are not paying attention you cannot anticipate taking over the steering wheel and or brake.

 

[kort677]

Planes can largely fly themselves, but they still run into edge situations where the pilot needs to step in and take control.

this is true to a point, like the AP system is on ramp to off ramp AFAIK while the planes are flying themselves the pilot still must get that plane into the air and back onto the ground while in control of the plane.

 

[kort677]

If my brakes didn't work in a particular scenario, that is somewhat typical - a car entering my lane from a side street, I wouldn't drive the car.

it appears that in this situation the brakes were not applied

 

[NOLA_Mike]

this is true to a point, like the AP system is on ramp to off ramp AFAIK while the planes are flying themselves the pilot still must get that plane into the air and back onto the ground while in control of the plane.

Today's autopilot in commercial aircraft can land the plane. The only thing it can't do is taxi and takeoff/initial climb.

 

[kort677]

It seems quite simple, a trunk cuts in front of a car, the car hits the truck. It doesn't matter who or what is operating the car, this accident was the truck drivers fault.

and the tesla driver is dead. who is at fault is most irrelevant to the bottom line. there was a confluence of bad judgments that caused the driver's death 1 being the trucker not being able to complete his turn without obstructing oncoming traffic and 2. the tesla driver not being in a position to assume control of the vehicle he was operating using the AP system.
what so many of you are ignoring is the the fact that the AP system is far from being perfect, it must always be monitored.
IT'S ONLY A BETA

 

[kort677]

European Tesla Model S owners manual states that Automatic Emergency Braking (CAA = Collision Avoidance Assist)
is only active between 8 and 140 km/h ( 5 - 87,5 MPH).

A driver going faster than 87,5MPH will not benefit from CAA.

in USA versions when the car exceeds 90 MPH the system will disengage and will make an audible alert to warn the driver of it's being shut down.

 

[InTheShadows]

Two points on the topic of Harry Potter and the DVD player:

• He could have been playing Harry Potter Music on the sound system, and the witness assumed it was a DVD. Alternatively it could have been an audio only version of Harry Potter, or a radio station discussing Harry Potter, etc.
• Even if he was playing Harry Potter on the DVD player, that does not necessarily lead to the conclusion he was watching it at the time of the accident. It is possible he was listening only.

Sure listening could be a distraction too, however I don't hear many people trying to ban music systems from cars.

Some people in this thread seem to assume that the car driver didn't have enough time to slow down, and as such it was the truck driver's fault. Other people seem to assume the car had plenty of time to observe a large truck and slow down, and as such it was proof that he wasn't paying attention. However all of this seems to be pure speculation, we don't know for sure based on the information we have.

If he was speeding this could explain why he didn't have enough time to slow down even though he may have had enough distance to slow down (if he was doing the speed limit).

I agree, this doesn't mean that he was watching it. I quite often play Ted talks videos in my phone while driving. I place the phone face down in the centre console so I am not tempted to look at the screen. This accident does bring to light of what one could be accused of doing.

 

[kort677]

Very sad and I agree that AP lures you into false sense of security

the ap does not lure you into a false sense of security, a person allows the system to lure them into inattentiveness. they feel that the system functions so well that if they divert their eyes from the road for a moment that the car will take care of them, as this tragedy proves that just isn't the case and the lesson that should be taken away from this is that despite the AP system being a remarkable leap forwards in self driving technology is far from being perfected and nowhere near being capable of handling all the possible situations that can be encountered. THE CAR IS NOT CAPABLE OF FULL AUTONOMOUS DRIVING.

 

[kort677]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that the driver in this case, as an acclaimed user and promoter of AP, was fully aware of the limitations of Autopilot? Evidence suggests otherwise. I see he posted a YouTube video of a trip from Boston to Orlando where he had his hands off the wheel 90% of the time.

not having his hands on the steering wheel is not the issue, I have driven many thousands of miles on AP on all sort of roads and rarely have my hands on the steering wheel, the issue is that apparently the driver did not have his eyes on the road ahead of him. you can drive the car safely with the AP engaged with your hands in your lap but you cannot drive safely on AP while taking your eyes off of the road.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Wow, that news cast is typical media junk. Self driving derailed and claims that autopilot kept driving. That is a load of crap. Having driven many many miles on autopilot if the sensors aren't reading, it deactivates. The car was going very fast, and high inertia. The newscast is claiming autopilot took itself between two trees and couldn't avoid the pole. Combine media hype and drama with and people who don't know what they are talking about and you get this.

So far is seems both drivers played a role, and Josh unfortunately seemed to be speeding and possibly distracted, and the truck driver playing loose with his driving. I've seen trucks and buses regularly turn with oncoming traffic and expecting vehicles to slow down for them.

Can't say this is exactly what's happened but so far it looks like driver error. Now there's the question of complacency and taking risks because the computer is handling things. Autopilot is still safer even considering complacent drivers. It is entirely crazy to get rid autopilot, AEB and all the other systems somewhat similar.

Yes and keep in mind the mobileye camera was sheared off. AP would deactivate immediately on a fault.

 

[Korben]

I see in thread a few comments about a hill?

Google Maps does not indicate anything more than, perhaps, a modest downhill with very clear line of sight for truck driver and Tesla driver. Here are a couple images to make the point a bit more clear. Gas pumps add some perspective.


Red=Truck
Black=Tesla
Blue=Gas pumps

View media item 115431
View media item 115432

 

[JamesPolk]

Tesla's direction and approach before impact (straight away, no major elevation changes/cresting) - Semi pulls in front from left at cross section going right into BP side street. (edited for correction)

Tractor trailer turns left in front of Tesla into BP street (correction from original post)

Birdview - Red (X) impact location - Tesla traveling southeast comes to rest near box -

 

[EVie'sDad]

The tesla on autopilot can travel faster than the designated speed shown if the operator presses their foot on the acceleration pedal. Autopilot does not disengage but the car accelerates. All the reports stated was that the brakes were not applied. What about the accelerator? Also the tesla driver is ultimately responsible for his own safety.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that the driver in this case, as an acclaimed user and promoter of AP, was fully aware of the limitations of Autopilot? Evidence suggests otherwise. I see he posted a YouTube video of a trip from Boston to Orlando where he had his hands off the wheel 90% of the time.

Being aware of limitations doesn't mean you act accordingly. Clearly.

 

[jdw]

"She was passed and she says she was doing 85, and when this car just passed her, she was just like, wow, you know, I wonder how fast that car was going"

Just another reminder not to believe news reports about anything, ever ...

"Driverless Car Crash" - The car had a driver, a "distracted driver car crash" perhaps?
"Car drove on despite windshield being ripped off" - Autopilot would have bailed when the camera went missing
"Car navigated between these two trees, but couldn't avoid the pole" - the car had no camera left and AP would have been disengaged.
"Car blew by another driver going 85" - maybe, if blew by is 5-6 MPH faster, the 90MPH limit of AP engagement
"Movie playing in the dash" - not without the driver modifying something to allow it. Then there's the DVD player ...

All you can really take away from this is that bad decisions from both human drivers caused an accident - the truck for pushing his luck on a left turn across a divided highway with oncoming traffic and the Tesla driver for not reacting at all to a truck blocking his path. For the most part, this accident could have happened with regular cruise control, including the "car kept driving" part.

But the "self-driving car kills driver" angle is just too tempting for the media. That it was a $100K+ self-driving Tesla is irresistible.

 

[llngoc]

Just another reminder not to believe news reports abut anything, ever ...

"Driverless Car Crash" - The car had a driver, a "distracted driver car crash" perhaps?
"Car drove on despite windshield being ripped off" - Autopilot would have bailed when the camera went missing
"Car navigated between these two trees, but couldn't avoid the pole" - the car had no camera left and AP would have been disengaged.
"Car blew by another driver going 85" - maybe, if blew by is 5-6 MPH faster, the 90MPH limit of AP engagement
"Movie playing in the dash" - not without the driver modifying something to allow it. Then there's the DVD player ...

All you can really take away from this is that bad decisions from both human drivers caused an accident - the truck for pushing his luck on a left turn across a divided highway with oncoming traffic and the Tesla driver for not reacting at all to a truck blocking his path. For the most part, this accident could have happened with regular cruise control, including the "car kept driving" part.

But the "self-driving car kills driver" angle is just too tempting for the media.

I agree that this accident would have happened regardless if there is AP or not. And if there is no Tesla Autopilot involved, it would probably just like the other hundreds of fatal accidents which will only have a 10 seconds clip on local news. "Tesla Autopilot massacre" is just too tempting for the media.

IMO, the primary fault should be the truck driver who makes a left turn assuming the incoming traffic will slow down or stop for him because he is bigger. As for the NHTSA investigation, the focus should be on if the Tesla driver was not alert due to AP and how to avoid it in the future if it is found true.