Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[JeffK]

Although it will be impossible to substantiate, I would expect that Tesla's AP at this point has saved more lives than it has cost.

It has certainly prevented a number of accidents, of which some could have caused fatalities.

Although the Model S is a very safe car, even the driver who was tragically killed while using the AP could in principle have had his life saved by it on a previous occasion, e.g. the one he got so much attention for when the AP saved him from that truck doing a dangerous lane change. Being a former navy SEAL he was used to familiarize himself with equipment on which his life would depend (e.g. diving and parachuting equipment), so I could imagine how he saw how the AP had previously saved him, and then put too much faith into its capability.

We will never know, but when used correctly, I feel confident that the AP actually offers some protection against human stupidity and I would not be surprised if it already now has had a net benefit.

I agree but I think that no matter what the statistics, any accident will cause a FUD news story in the near term over the next few years as we transition to full autonomy. In the far future maybe we can look forward to FUD news stories about people who drive cars manually haha.

 

[Max*]

TACC has been around a long time and not all TACC systems are full stop (which is a huge improvement)

Autonomous cruise control system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree, many are not, but there are a lot that are full stop.

This does not advance the level of autonomy (Tesla Level 2.5 or Level 3), it just makes the current level of autonomy better than the competition. (i.e. Tesla Level 2 > Mercedes Level 2)

there's also AEB.

AEB on is Level 1 Autonomy. Many manufacturers are including AEB as a standard feature. It's going to be a standard feature for all manufacturers by 2020.

Also, AEB is not part of AutoPilot. AEB is a safety feature which is included in all Tesla's. AutoPilot = TACC + Auto-Steer.



I stand by my point. Tesla AP = TACC + Lane keep which is the definition of NHTSA Level 2. Tesla is not above it, and I stand by we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[deonb]

I see what you did there, but you're [obviously] taking it out of context.

He's talking about people, there are >7B people in the world, with a normal distribution --> it's contradictory.

Nope. Even then, it's commonly the case that the majority of the world or a large population is above or below a certain average.

E.g.
U.S average per-capita income 2015: $53'750
% of people in the U.S. earning below $53'750: 65%

 

[JeffK]

(i.e. Tesla Level 2 > Mercedes Level 2)

but 2 is not greater than 2 hence I made up a 2.5... so you are agreeing again whether you like it or not

We can call it 2.1 if you like... call it whatever you want but not all level 2s are created equal.

 

[Max*]

I see what you did there, but you're [obviously] taking it out of context.

He's talking about people, there are >7B people in the world, with a normal distribution --> it's contradictory.

Nope. Even then, it's commonly the case that the majority of the world or a large population is above or below a certain average.

E.g.
U.S average per-capita income 2015: $53'750
% of people in the U.S. earning below $53'750: 65%

Again, out of context and not what I said -- see above. US income is not a normal distribution.

Your counterargument could be that neither is IQ (or intelligence). And then I might have to agree with you, though I'll still put up a fight

 

[Max*]

but 2 is not greater than 2 hence I made up a 2.5... so you are agreeing again whether you like it or not

lol, you just don't give up do you.

I can have 6 fresh large apples and 6 spoiled small apples. 6 is not greater than 6.
But I'll take the 6 large unspoiled apples any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Thanks for playing.

 

[JeffK]

lol, you just don't give up do you.

I can have 6 fresh large apples and 6 spoiled small apples. 6 is not greater than 6.
But I'll take the 6 large unspoiled apples any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Thanks for playing.

We're still assigning a value to the apples spoiled or not spoiled. (6 + je ne sais quoi) > 6

I'm just giving you a hard time haha

 

[Max*]

I'm just giving you a hard time haha

I know

 

[jgs]

Y'all might want to take further tutorials on simple arithmetic to Random Chitchat?

 

[Max*]

Y'all might want to take further tutorials on simple arithmetic to Random Chitchat?

If it were simple, there wouldn't be a discussion!

 

[Tam]

Consumer Watch Dog just sent to Elon Musk a demand letter yesterday.

If I understood correctly, they only ask for 2 things:

1) Disable it immediately.
2) Pledge to be liable if anything goes wrong when the self-driving system is engaged.

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/resources/ltrmusk070716.pdf

 

[trils0n]

Name: John Simpson

Email: [email protected]

This is the person who is listed as the Contact Person for the Consumer Watchdog letter. Perhaps some autopilot owners should email him stating how misguided / misinformed they are with regards to autopilot.

The main error in the reasoning appears to be that they believe Autopilot to be Self-Driving/Autonomous. Everything goes awry from there.

 

[littlecloudy]

"consumer watchdog isn't a consumer group at all. Consider these facts:

• It claims to work for the public interest, but refuses to reveal who its funders are;
• Rakes in millions of dollars for itself from a self-serving "intervenor fee" provision it inserted into a ballot initiative;
• Has been fined by California's Fair Political Practices Commission for illegal actions;
• Has a founder who has pocketed millions from the organization and its affiliates, and lives in a $1.75 million mansion; and
• Is funneled money by special interests, including corporations, for its grandstanding and attacks."

ConsumerWatchdogWatch.com

 

[Tam]

...Perhaps some autopilot owners should email him stating how misguided / misinformed they are with regards to autopilot...

I just responded on its facebook

Consumer Watchdog

with the classic picture of "Auto-pilot 1958 Imperial."

 

[Az_Rael]

Wow. So the NTSB is now investigating this incident.

Driver Automation to Be Scrutinized in NTSB Probe of Tesla Crash

"While the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is conducting its own review of the May 7 incident, the NTSB wants to take a more comprehensive look at whether the crash reveals any systemic issues with driverless car technology, O’Neil said. NHTSA is a regulatory agency and the NTSB is an independent investigative body that only has the power to make policy recommendations."

I am seeing less and less of a chance that Tesa/rest of the industry escapes this without some new rules.

 

[T_esla T_ips]

I've been defending AP all I can on Car Throttle and Instagram - and this one article seems to say everything that is evident to Tesla owners.

(Article)

 

[CliffG]

"consumer watchdog isn't a consumer group at all. Consider these facts:

• It claims to work for the public interest, but refuses to reveal who its funders are;
• Rakes in millions of dollars for itself from a self-serving "intervenor fee" provision it inserted into a ballot initiative;
• Has been fined by California's Fair Political Practices Commission for illegal actions;
• Has a founder who has pocketed millions from the organization and its affiliates, and lives in a $1.75 million mansion; and
• Is funneled money by special interests, including corporations, for its grandstanding and attacks."

ConsumerWatchdogWatch.com

These are the same folks who pressured NHTSA to require AEB as standard equipment. Just about a month ago. Is it possible your points explain how they can be both for and against these technologies? (Have we found a counterexample to Hanson's razor?)

 

[littlecloudy]

To be clear, I was quoting from the link. I don't know where the quote icon is here...

I'd never heard of Consumer Watchdog before but was astounded by their tone, which is why I googled them.

 

[Electroman]

Koch money is working hard

 

[wdolson]

Consumer Watchdog is a legitimate organization and Jamie Court is a real person:
Consumer Watchdog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jamie Court - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They appear to be a left leaning watchdog group and almost certainly not a Koch astroturf organization.

consumerwatchdogwatch.com is more difficult to run down. The website is owned by someone named Adrian Gill in Temecula, CA.

Now this isn't saying Consumer Watchdog is right here. I agree they are drawing bad conclusions based on a misunderstanding.