FD Beta : TomTom Map, Roundabouts and the Speedlimit

[EVNow]

TL;DR : Let us use this thread to talk about map changes that could potentially make FSD Beta behave better

Thanks to the post below by @MP3Mike I discovered an interesting little fact. Tesla probably does use TomTom maps rather than Google or OpenStreet for city FSD Beta driving.

I've two small roundabouts near my house. Both the roundabouts are present in Google Map as well as OpenStreet. But in TomTom only one of them is present. Funny enough, its the newer roundabout that TomTom has, not the older one.

FSD Beta behave drastically differently when approaching these two roundabouts.
- In the newer one that is in TomTom map, FSD shows the roundabout in the UI, slows down, puts on blinkers, hesitates a lot before navigating the roundabout
- In the older one that is not in TomTom map, but is in Google/OSM, FSD doesn't show the roundabout in UI and doesn't slow down. If I don't disengage will probably hit/go over the roundabout like it did for Gali in the famous "no interventions" youtube video

Can anyone verify this in your neighborhoods / routes ? For eg., @jebinc - you were saying FSD takes some roundabout smoothly without hesitating, can you check in TomTom map, whether the roundabout is present ?

Also, if anyone is having issues with speed limits, you can try to correct it in TomTom and see if it ever flows down to the car.

MapShare Reporter

With the TomTom MapShare Reporter you can report the following map changes:

Speed limit - add or update a speed limit.
You can add a speed limit or update an existing speed limit using the following options:
Select Speed Limit , then Add a speed signboard to indicate the road on the map where a speed limit must be added.
As well as maximum speed and standard information, you can also provide more details in your report, for example type of vehicle or time restrictions. Select Add more details to see the full list of report items.
Select Speed Limit , then Update a speed limit to indicate the road on the map where the speed limit needs to be updated.
As well as maximum speed and standard information, you can also provide more details in your report, for example type of vehicle or time restrictions. Select Add more details to see the full list of report items.

It seems like they support users making changes:

About MapShare reporter

MapShare Reporter is an online application for reporting changes to TomTom maps using your mobile phone, tablet, desktop or laptop computer. MapShare Reporter enables you to use a larger moni...

help.tomtom.com

Type of changes possible in MapShare

TomTom MapShare on your navigation device is a unique technology that enables you to add to, update and personalise your maps instantly. If you choose to, you can also share your map corrections wi...

help.tomtom.com

 

[jebinc]

TL;DR : Let us use this thread to talk about map changes that could potentially make FSD Beta behave better

Thanks to the following post I discovered an interesting little fact. Tesla probably does use TomTom maps rather than Google or OpenStreet for city FSD Beta driving.

I've two small roundabouts near my house. Both the roundabouts are present in Google Map as well as OpenStreet. But in TomTom only one of them is present. Funny enough, its the newer roundabout that TomTom has, not the older one.

FSD Beta behave drastically differently when approaching these two roundabouts.
- In the newer one that is in TomTom map, FSD shows the roundabout in the UI, slows down, puts on blinkers, hesitates a lot before navigating the roundabout
- In the older one that is not in TomTom map, but is in Google/OSM, FSD doesn't show the roundabout in UI and doesn't slow down. If I don't disengage will probably hit/go over the roundabout like it did for Gali in the famous "no interventions" youtube video

Can anyone verify this in your neighborhoods / routes ? For eg., @jebinc - you were saying FSD takes some roundabout smoothly without hesitating, can you check in TomTom map, whether the roundabout is present ?

Also, if anyone is having issues with speed limits, you can try to correct it in TomTom and see if it ever flows down to the car.

Wiki - MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences

I noticed that this issue is more prevalent during daylight hours. During night time drives, even on the same streets, I hardly ever get these issues. Hmmmm. I'd never realized this, but yeah... I get more phantom slowing/braking during the day, too.

teslamotorsclub.com

@EVNow Tomtom maps does show the roundabout I mentioned previously. See attached.

 

[EVNow]

@EVNow Tomtom maps does show the roundabout I mentioned previously. See attached.

View attachment 729071

So, when you approach the roundabout, does FSD visualization show the roundabout - and does the car slow down somewhat ?

 

[jebinc]

So, when you approach the roundabout, does FSD visualization show the roundabout - and does the car slow down somewhat ?

I recall navigation calls it out and also shows it on the map. Not sure about the visualizations, as it has been awhile. Haven’t used FSD in more than a week, as I was not impressed by 10.3.x. Will try again after I get 10.4; if I choose to get 10.4…

Was thinking about opting out, as I do want the active road noise canceling feature found in 2021.40. If this coming weekend’s FSD release is not on the .40 branch, I will likely opt out to get something I can actually use; ANC. Would opt back in for beta FSD v11, maybe.

@EVNow @WilliamG

 

[Dutchy Ron]

As far as I know Tesla is only using the speedlimits from TomTom, not the mapdata, navigiation or traffic info. On the TomTom website you can report changes if the speed limit is not correct or has been changed.

@EVNow, interesting roundabouts case…. maybe Tesla starts using TomTom mapdata in the FSD beta version…. TomTom is marketleader and has better maps, navigation and traffic info than OS, Mapbox and Valhalla which are/were use by Tesla. There will be a time Tesla will user the HD Maps op TomTom ;-)

Tesla is using Mapbox and Valhalla, maybe one of them is using TomTom maps or navigation

 

[zigmeister]

Roundabouts in general are a dumpster fire, particularly two lane versions.

Same issue I have with 6 roundabouts in my neighborhood.

There are cross walks with lights for pedestrians that will flash if they push the button on each side, they don't flash all the time, and yield signs as well. At the entry points on all sides.

The car will sometimes stop at the cross walk when it shouldn't. It will sometimes put on a turn signal to the right, sometimes not. Also, it will go into whatever lane, usually the inside lane, unless I tell it to stay in the right lane.

I just press the accelerator always once I know it is clear as I'm approaching and it will go right ahead and through it normally. But when in the inside lane, it will put the left turn signal on when it knows it is going straight through. Really strange how it reacts differently all the time.

In fact, yesterday morning, it did what most people would do, it actually went right into the roundabout from the right lane, cut across the inside lane trying to nearly go straight through and across to the right lane again. It was hilarious and I loved it because 50% or more of people do this with nobody around.

Lastly, another example, if it is in the left lane, when it comes around from a far side, like going through one joining road through around to the 2nd, it will see there is no white line briefly, and it will go to the outside lane, as if it is going to run straight into the far curb, then it turns left quick, hits the brakes and finishes in the outside lane/right side.

It goes on and on how bad and slow/inconsistent it is. I don't maps are an issue at all. It is just bad roundabout abilities and coding.

 

[EVNow]

It goes on and on how bad and slow/inconsistent it is. I don't maps are an issue at all. It is just bad roundabout abilities and coding.

There are 2 separate issues.
- FSD Beta is very hesitant when navigating roundabouts. The code is there, but immature.
- FSD Beta doesn't handle multi-lane roundabouts properly at all (looks like not coded at all)

But all this - IF the roundabout is present in the map. If the roundabout is not in the map data - FSD will just treat it as some kind of diversion and handle it like a normal road. This is the part I'm looking at.

BTW, in your case (of 6 nearby roundabouts) are they all on TomTom map ?

 

[EVNow]

Tesla is using Mapbox and Valhalla, maybe one of them is using TomTom maps or navigation

I'll have to checkout Mapbox & Valhalla.

Looks like Mapbox is not advertising usage by Tesla. But they do mention Rivian - my guess would be Tesla is no longer using Mapbox.

Automotive | Mapbox

Define the journey for driver and passenger by owning the map design and application performance in-dash, on mobile, and for autonomous driving.

www.mapbox.com

I can't even get to Valhalla's website ... ?

 

[Mardak]

Whoever can figure out which mapping service has this bogus road positioning wins! Here's a screenshot from the video:

You can verify yourself that Tesla navigation still is using this clearly wrong map data by navigating to 257 Henderson Saluda:

(To be clear, the white road lines and other map features are from Google Maps, but navigation and likely what FSD Beta uses is something else.)

 

[jebinc]

I recall navigation calls it out and also shows it on the map. Not sure about the visualizations, as it has been awhile. Haven’t used FSD in more than a week, as I was not impressed by 10.3.x. Will try again after I get 10.4; if I choose to get 10.4…

Was thinking about opting out, as I do want the active road noise canceling feature found in 2021.40. If this coming weekend’s FSD release is not on the .40 branch, I will likely opt out to get something I can actually use; ANC. Would opt back in for beta FSD v11, maybe.

@EVNow @WilliamG

@EVNow I revisited that roundabout in the pouring rain this morning, and it was very rough. Stopped before entering the roundabout and was very jerky. Almost curb rash, in fact. Was not following a lead car. The visualizations showed all the curves and stuff, but it visualizes just the road immediately around the car, and not the whole roundabout. Won’t be driving this release any more. @WilliamG

 

[EVNow]

You can verify yourself that Tesla navigation still is using this clearly wrong map data by navigating to 257 Henderson Saluda:

TomTom doesn't have that - even though the map is slightly different than the Google map, which shows a break of Charles St at Seminary, but TomTom doesn't.

 

[Dutchy Ron]

The navigation data and routing engine are provided by another software company, MapBox, which has been working on these projects for about a decade now.

In 2018, MapBox acquired a routing engine named 'Vallhalla', which is now part of the core API MapBox provides to users and enterprise clients like Tesla, Facebook, and many more. MapBox claims they gather data from millions of devices that their application is a part of and they reach at least 600 million people a month.

 

[EVNow]

@EVNow I revisited that roundabout in the pouring rain this morning, and it was very rough. Stopped before entering the roundabout and was very jerky. Almost curb rash, in fact. Was not following a lead car. The visualizations showed all the curves and stuff, but it visualizes just the road immediately around the car, and not the whole roundabout. Won’t be driving this release any more. @WilliamG

Interesting - so looks like earlier FSD just thought of it as part of the road (just a diversion / twist) and followed through easily because visibility was good. Basically FSD treats roundabouts like a stop sign. Stops, checks, hesitates before moving.

Does TomTom show the roundabout ? You can search here ...

https://www.tomtom.com/mapshare/tools/new/mapshare

 

[jebinc]

Interesting - so looks like earlier FSD just thought of it as part of the road (just a diversion / twist) and followed through easily because visibility was good.

Does TomTom show the roundabout ? You can search here ...

https://www.tomtom.com/mapshare/tools/new/mapshare

@EVNow As I shared yesterday, yes.

 

[EVNow]

@EVNow As I shared yesterday, yes.

View attachment 729344

Oh yes, I remember now.

I can see coming from 516 and proceeding along 180 might be easy compared to say - coming from 267 and going North on 180 (assuming up is North).

 

[EVNow]

The navigation data and routing engine are provided by another software company, MapBox, which has been working on these projects for about a decade now.

In 2018, MapBox acquired a routing engine named 'Vallhalla', which is now part of the core API MapBox provides to users and enterprise clients like Tesla, Facebook, and many more. MapBox claims they gather data from millions of devices that their application is a part of and they reach at least 600 million people a month.

That makes sense. So, Tesla no longer use their branch of the opensource Valhalla on Github.

Still surprising, Mapbox doesn't mention Tesla - may be Tesla doesn't want them to.

I'm going to suggest some edits to MapBox and see whether to make it to the car.

 

[Mardak]

Google map, which shows a break of Charles St at Seminary, but TomTom doesn't.

Ah yeah that's another good reference point to compare. (Bonus note is Charles is actually a blocked off street when "connecting" to Main, so FSD Beta will try to drive into planter boxes there.)

Here's using BBBike.org tile server:

Looks like Bing Map and Michelin Map both have a strange triangle although it seems like Tesla map data is missing the bottom side of that triangle at Seminary & Church.

 

[Dutchy Ron]

MSFT Bing Maps is migrated to TomTom maps

Microsoft Bing Maps is switching to TomTom for base map data

Microsoft first started gradually rolling out the new TomTom base map data to Bing.com users and Microsoft first party products in March 2020. From today, Microsoft is transitioning the data for Bing Maps Platform.

mspoweruser.com

 

[EVNow]

Ah yeah that's another good reference point to compare. (Bonus note is Charles is actually a blocked off street when "connecting" to Main, so FSD Beta will try to drive into planter boxes there.)

Here's using BBBike.org tile server:

View attachment 729358
Looks like Bing Map and Michelin Map both have a strange triangle although it seems like Tesla map data is missing the bottom side of that triangle at Seminary & Church.

MSFT Bing Maps is migrated to TomTom maps

Microsoft Bing Maps is switching to TomTom for base map data

Microsoft first started gradually rolling out the new TomTom base map data to Bing.com users and Microsoft first party products in March 2020. From today, Microsoft is transitioning the data for Bing Maps Platform.

mspoweruser.com

This gets more and more curious.

So, looks like Tesla is using Bing/Michelin map for routing - but apparently Bing map is TomTom's - which looks different above !!

ps : I guess earlier Bing was using Nokia (or its mapping subsidiary) map ?

 

[Dutchy Ron]

NavTeq was the mapping company of NOKIA, bought by the BAD boys…… BMW, Audi and Daimler and renamed in HERE WeGo…… Tesla is not using HERE maps or navigation ann not using Bing maps.