Feeling scammed on FSD retrofit. Am I in the wrong?

[Mike K]

Hey all. I purchased a used 2017 Model X a few months ago. The car had enhanced autopilot and the AP2 computer. It's low milage and has MCU1 without any of the EMMC issues. We don't use Netflix and I have little desire to pay $2500 for the upgrade. It's just not for me. I had no intention of upgrading to full self driving but then Tesla dropped the upgrade price to $2000 if you already had enhanced auto pilot.

When pulling up the upgrades screen in my app it showed full self driving for $2000 with the caveat that the vehicle would need to go into service for the AP3 computer. I had done this with my Model 3 years prior so I understood the process and assumed that now that full self driving is in wide release, this was the only thing standing between me and having FSD on the car. I was wrong.

I got the car back from service and noticed it didn't have the full self driving firmware on it. Not the end of the world. I figured it would pull the update within a few days. The other peculiar thing I noticed is that I had the "request beta access" button for full self driving. And when I clicked that button it said I was added to the queue. My understanding is the queue is no longer a thing and that if you have the hardware and pay for the software, you're in. After all, millions of people apparently received free trials of the software. They didn't have to join a queue.

So I did a little digging and discover that full self driving on MCU1 cars does not exist. Or I should say, the firmware does not exist. And knowing Tesla's history of edge case firmware support for legacy vehicles, it seems likely this will never happen. There was a firmware version that was released and subsequently the rollout was stopped. So everyone with MCU1 and FSD hardware is just twiddling their thumbs. I would have never purchased this had I known. I haven't owned an MCU1 car since my old P85D 8 years ago. So this was all news to me.

Meanwhile, Tesla is stating (according to the tech that called me) that the Tegra chip in MCU1 is unable to keep up with the visuals and that the vehicle would need to be upgraded to MCU2 for $2500 for me to receive full self driving. Which seems to confirm that this will never come to this vehicle.

From my perspective, the app showed a price and mentioned that I needed the computer upgrade which was included. It did not mention any other necessary upgrades that I would have to pay for out of pocket. I think from Tesla's perspective it's "we intend to eventually offer firmware on these edge case vehicles" but at no point in the process did the tech call and give me a heads up that the car would need further upgrades that I'd have to pay for. Nor did the service center. Each agent I've spoken to at the 800 number seems surprised to hear that they installed the computer in my car without advising me of this.

I want either a refund (they can leave the computer or take it back) or for them to upgrade the car to MCU 2 on their dime. Am I being unreasonable here?

They have kicked the can down the road for a full week now. I've spoken to 4 different agents, each of which says they're escalating it to the service center and to wait for a call back. The call back never comes. My next course of action is arbitration - a hassle I don't feel I should need to endure for their mistake - or a chargeback.

 

[Tam]

Hey all. I purchased a used 2017 Model X a few months ago. The car had enhanced autopilot and the AP2 computer. It's low milage and has MCU1 without any of the EMMC issues. We don't use Netflix and I have little desire to pay $2500 for the upgrade. It's just not for me. I had no intention of upgrading to full self driving but then Tesla dropped the upgrade price to $2000 if you already had enhanced auto pilot.

When pulling up the upgrades screen in my app it showed full self driving for $2000 with the caveat that the vehicle would need to go into service for the AP3 computer. I had done this with my Model 3 years prior so I understood the process and assumed that now that full self driving is in wide release, this was the only thing standing between me and having FSD on the car. I was wrong.

I got the car back from service and noticed it didn't have the full self driving firmware on it. Not the end of the world. I figured it would pull the update within a few days. The other peculiar thing I noticed is that I had the "request beta access" button for full self driving. And when I clicked that button it said I was added to the queue. My understanding is the queue is no longer a thing and that if you have the hardware and pay for the software, you're in. After all, millions of people apparently received free trials of the software. They didn't have to join a queue.

So I did a little digging and discover that full self driving on MCU1 cars does not exist. Or I should say, the firmware does not exist. And knowing Tesla's history of edge case firmware support for legacy vehicles, it seems likely this will never happen. There was a firmware version that was released and subsequently the rollout was stopped. So everyone with MCU1 and FSD hardware is just twiddling their thumbs. I would have never purchased this had I known. I haven't owned an MCU1 car since my old P85D 8 years ago. So this was all news to me.

Meanwhile, Tesla is stating (according to the tech that called me) that the Tegra chip in MCU1 is unable to keep up with the visuals and that the vehicle would need to be upgraded to MCU2 for $2500 for me to receive full self driving. Which seems to confirm that this will never come to this vehicle.

From my perspective, the app showed a price and mentioned that I needed the computer upgrade which was included. It did not mention any other necessary upgrades that I would have to pay for out of pocket. I think from Tesla's perspective it's "we intend to eventually offer firmware on these edge case vehicles" but at no point in the process did the tech call and give me a heads up that the car would need further upgrades that I'd have to pay for. Nor did the service center. Each agent I've spoken to at the 800 number seems surprised to hear that they installed the computer in my car without advising me of this.

I want either a refund (they can leave the computer or take it back) or for them to upgrade the car to MCU 2 on their dime. Am I being unreasonable here?

They have kicked the can down the road for a full week now. I've spoken to 4 different agents, each of which says they're escalating it to the service center and to wait for a call back. The call back never comes. My next course of action is arbitration - a hassle I don't feel I should need to endure for their mistake - or a chargeback.

I am with you on this:

Before paying for FSD, Tesla should disclose the additional $2,500 MCU2 and it shouldn't take your FSD money until you agree to pay for MCU2 first.

 

[azred]

Hey all. I purchased a used 2017 Model X a few months ago. The car had enhanced autopilot and the AP2 computer. It's low milage and has MCU1 without any of the EMMC issues. We don't use Netflix and I have little desire to pay $2500 for the upgrade. It's just not for me. I had no intention of upgrading to full self driving but then Tesla dropped the upgrade price to $2000 if you already had enhanced auto pilot.

When pulling up the upgrades screen in my app it showed full self driving for $2000 with the caveat that the vehicle would need to go into service for the AP3 computer. I had done this with my Model 3 years prior so I understood the process and assumed that now that full self driving is in wide release, this was the only thing standing between me and having FSD on the car. I was wrong.

I got the car back from service and noticed it didn't have the full self driving firmware on it. Not the end of the world. I figured it would pull the update within a few days. The other peculiar thing I noticed is that I had the "request beta access" button for full self driving. And when I clicked that button it said I was added to the queue. My understanding is the queue is no longer a thing and that if you have the hardware and pay for the software, you're in. After all, millions of people apparently received free trials of the software. They didn't have to join a queue.

So I did a little digging and discover that full self driving on MCU1 cars does not exist. Or I should say, the firmware does not exist. And knowing Tesla's history of edge case firmware support for legacy vehicles, it seems likely this will never happen. There was a firmware version that was released and subsequently the rollout was stopped. So everyone with MCU1 and FSD hardware is just twiddling their thumbs. I would have never purchased this had I known. I haven't owned an MCU1 car since my old P85D 8 years ago. So this was all news to me.

Meanwhile, Tesla is stating (according to the tech that called me) that the Tegra chip in MCU1 is unable to keep up with the visuals and that the vehicle would need to be upgraded to MCU2 for $2500 for me to receive full self driving. Which seems to confirm that this will never come to this vehicle.

From my perspective, the app showed a price and mentioned that I needed the computer upgrade which was included. It did not mention any other necessary upgrades that I would have to pay for out of pocket. I think from Tesla's perspective it's "we intend to eventually offer firmware on these edge case vehicles" but at no point in the process did the tech call and give me a heads up that the car would need further upgrades that I'd have to pay for. Nor did the service center. Each agent I've spoken to at the 800 number seems surprised to hear that they installed the computer in my car without advising me of this.

I want either a refund (they can leave the computer or take it back) or for them to upgrade the car to MCU 2 on their dime. Am I being unreasonable here?

They have kicked the can down the road for a full week now. I've spoken to 4 different agents, each of which says they're escalating it to the service center and to wait for a call back. The call back never comes. My next course of action is arbitration - a hassle I don't feel I should need to endure for their mistake - or a chargeback.

You have been here for 11 years, posted quite a few times and disn’t know MCU1 cars have gotten the shaft re FSD? That seems hard to believe.

 

[Mike K]

You have been here for 11 years, posted quite a few times and disn’t know MCU1 cars have gotten the shaft re FSD? That seems hard to believe.

I've been here a looooong time. I was here when it was just Rich Benoit, me and a couple others working on salvage cars. But I lost interest as an enthusiast long ago. I handed my AP1 P85D back in at the end of 2018, bought a Model 3 in 2019 and that was the only Tesla I've owned until I bought this X. So I've got zero experience with MCU 1 cars and their autopilot woes. Until now. Now I'm pretty well versed. lol

 

[Mardak]

There was a firmware version that was released and subsequently the rollout was stopped…

Meanwhile, Tesla is stating (according to the tech that called me) that the Tegra chip in MCU1 is unable to keep up with the visuals and that the vehicle would need to be upgraded to MCU2 for $2500 for me to receive full self driving.

Seems like the tech is wrong in that there are MCU1 vehicles with FSD Beta 10.x and that the Infotainment Upgrade should be $1,750 now that you have AP3 computer. There is a slight hope that the slow visualizations is not as big of an issue with FSD Supervised 12.x given that people have experienced it working fine when visualizations stopped showing when half of the FSD computer restarted while the other half continued controlling the vehicle just fine.

Given the long turnaround time for Tesla getting 12.x working on all the variations of new hardware or even newer software like 2024.14.x, it does seem like getting 12.x working on 2022.8.10.x for MCU1 continues to be low on their prioritization. Overall indeed bad customer experience for all those still waiting with MCU1.

 

[gsmith123]

Tesla's treatment of MCU1 cars with FSD purchased has long been pretty unfair, but it feels particularly egregious when you're paying for up an upgrade now and confusingly only half of the hardware upgrades are free.

I'm so curious how Tesla actually thinks about this internally:
- Maybe they're just simply don't think about it
- Maybe they actually intend to support MCU1 eventually?
- Maybe they think it's a better business strategy to do nothing, until absolutely forced to through a lawsuit and then retrofit MCU2 for the dwindling population of relevant vehicles?

 

[Handsome Jack]

Avoiding question if it fair or not, I would have totally taken $2000 upgrade to get FSD, especially if it's not just a toy but something that you can use daily for example to gain some rest while car is driving and have more energy in return.

I've just spent about $1500 to install Comma's OpenPilot in TMY (we don't have FSD in Europe) and I couldn't be happier, where it has just a fraction of capacity of full FSD.

I wouldn't be so judgmental to tesla, it's super hard to jiggle all car versions, hardware nuances etc. and would be happy that there is upgrade route at all, especially for something complicated as MCU (normally you buy car and to get upgrade you need to go and buy a new car)

 

[gsmith123]

I wouldn't be so judgmental to tesla, it's super hard to jiggle all car versions, hardware nuances etc. and would be happy that there is upgrade route at all

If only Tesla knew about these complexities before selling FSD to people lol.

There are a lot of versions but Tesla has some EASY things they could do:
- Bump up the upgrade price for MCU1 cars to cover the MCU2 uogrsde
- just eat the cost of MCU2
- don’t sell FSD upgrades for MCU1 cars any more

 

[strider]

Even if the app couldn't keep track of all of the permutations, the SC should have let you know when you brought it in for the AP3 upgrade. They should have told you that FSD wasn't currently available with MCU1 cars and give you the option to cancel the upgrade.

I guess the bigger question is, do you actually want FSD? If yes, then you need to push Tesla to give you an MCU upgrade or at least give you a big discount. If you don't really want FSD, then push them to refund your money and they can decide whether to pull the AP computer or not.

I'm currently trying to decide how much time I want to invest in trying to force Tesla to give me a center horn in my MXP. Elon tweeted that all cars since November, 2021 had the hardware. My car was built in March, 2022. No hardware. Now they want me to pay thousands of dollars for something that I was told was already in my car.

 

[Mike K]

Tesla's treatment of MCU1 cars with FSD purchased has long been pretty unfair, but it feels particularly egregious when you're paying for up an upgrade now and confusingly only half of the hardware upgrades are free.

I'm so curious how Tesla actually thinks about this internally:
- Maybe they're just simply don't think about it
- Maybe they actually intend to support MCU1 eventually?
- Maybe they think it's a better business strategy to do nothing, until absolutely forced to through a lawsuit and then retrofit MCU2 for the dwindling population of relevant vehicles?

I think their intention all along was to just wait for these cars to age out. The precedent has been set that the early adopters were willing to give them a pass, with some people buying and paying for FSD on 2 or more cars and never receiving it. When customers send the signal that they're going to let themselves get grifted, the company will happily grift.

Avoiding question if it fair or not, I would have totally taken $2000 upgrade to get FSD, especially if it's not just a toy but something that you can use daily for example to gain some rest while car is driving and have more energy in return.

I've just spent about $1500 to install Comma's OpenPilot in TMY (we don't have FSD in Europe) and I couldn't be happier, where it has just a fraction of capacity of full FSD.

I wouldn't be so judgmental to tesla, it's super hard to jiggle all car versions, hardware nuances etc. and would be happy that there is upgrade route at all, especially for something complicated as MCU (normally you buy car and to get upgrade you need to go and buy a new car)

I'd be far less judgmental if they disclosed that I would need to pay for further upgrades out of pocket in order for this to work.

If only Tesla knew about these complexities before selling FSD to people lol.

There are a lot of versions but Tesla has some EASY things they could do:
- Bump up the upgrade price for MCU1 cars to cover the MCU2 uogrsde
- just eat the cost of MCU2
- don’t sell FSD upgrades for MCU1 cars any more

This. You can't speak out of both sides of your mouth here. I remember for years Elon saying that if you bought full self driving they'd get you that, even if the car needed a hardware retrofit. Now full self driving is in wide release and the people with the oldest cars, arguably the most ardent Tesla supporters, still do not have full self driving and seemingly no path to get there outside of upgrading their infotainment out of pocket.

Even if the app couldn't keep track of all of the permutations, the SC should have let you know when you brought it in for the AP3 upgrade. They should have told you that FSD wasn't currently available with MCU1 cars and give you the option to cancel the upgrade.

I guess the bigger question is, do you actually want FSD? If yes, then you need to push Tesla to give you an MCU upgrade or at least give you a big discount. If you don't really want FSD, then push them to refund your money and they can decide whether to pull the AP computer or not.

I'm currently trying to decide how much time I want to invest in trying to force Tesla to give me a center horn in my MXP. Elon tweeted that all cars since November, 2021 had the hardware. My car was built in March, 2022. No hardware. Now they want me to pay thousands of dollars for something that I was told was already in my car.

View attachment 1049167

This is why Elon just needs to keep his mouth shut. He consistently writes checks with his mouth that his ass can't cash. People have accepted that for a long time and the tide is finally turning. My patience for nonsense like this is gone. I won't buy another Tesla. I just don't like the way they do business.

As for my car, after the fifth agent told me someone would call me within 24 hours, once again nobody has called. Today I'll initiate a chargeback on my credit card and move on with life. That's five separate calls to them. Five agents telling me someone would call me back. Zero call backs. What a way to do business.

 

[hybridbear]

Review this thread: How to sue Tesla over historical claims

 

[seenhear]

I want either a refund (they can leave the computer or take it back) or for them to upgrade the car to MCU 2 on their dime. Am I being unreasonable here?

Not unreasonable at all. You should absolutely demand the MCU2 upgrade free of charge, based on the fact that when your car was sold new, it was advertised as having all the necessary hardware to run FSD. If they still deny your request, take them to small claims court. You'll likely win easily as they won't show up in court to defend themselves, and you'll only need to convince the judge.
My similar experience is detailed HERE.

EDIT: Tesla's statement that all cars have FSD hardware as of October 2016:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware/

And the literal advertisement on the info/order page for the Model S from 2017, archived:

Model S | Tesla

web.archive.org

 

[MP3Mike]

I think their intention all along was to just wait for these cars to age out.

I don't think this is the case, if it were Tesla wouldn't have released FSD v10.x to MCU1 vehicles.

There is also an outstanding recall for MCU1 vehicles and FSD that Tesla will have to deal with. Either by updating the software for MCU1, or by replacing the MCU1 with MCU2. As of May 1st, there were ~210k vehicles, across all models, with the recall outstanding. (But NHTSA gives companies years to remediate recalls, so there is no need for them to be in a rush for the recall.)

 

[pelargir]

I don't think this is the case, if it were Tesla wouldn't have released FSD v10.x to MCU1 vehicles.
<snip>

They released what was already an old version of FSD for MCU1 and quickly pulled it afterwards. Only a handful of MCU1 cars actually received it.

What's clear is that bringing FSD to MCU1 is the lowest of low priorities for Tesla. Those of us who purchased in 2017 have battery and drivetrain warranties that expire next year. Our cars are already 7 years old and getting older all the time.

How realistic is it to expect us to continue waiting an indefinite period of time for Tesla to fulfill its original commitment?

What I don't understand is how it makes financial sense for Tesla to continue paying developers to work on FSD for a dead architecture vs. upgrading those who bought FSD and are stuck on MCU1. Perhaps offering a small discount would incentivize us, but they haven't even done that.

It's as if Tesla is channeling Willy Wonka. "You get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!"

 

[MP3Mike]

What I don't understand is how it makes financial sense for Tesla to continue paying developers to work on FSD for a dead architecture vs. upgrading those who bought FSD and are stuck on MCU1. Perhaps offering a small discount would incentivize us, but they haven't even done that.

Given it is a recall, they sort of have to update the software. (Some people might not want the MCU2 "upgrade", as they would lose their AM radio.) It could be that they are waiting for the new NHTSA investigation to be completed, so that they can be sure that the changes they make will satisfy NHTSA. (Why put effort into putting the current fixes into MCU1 vehicles when NHTSA is already saying that it isn't enough. Just wait and do it once NHTSA has signed off on the requirements.)

They even have to code the recall changes for AP1.0 vehicles...

 

[ewoodrick]

Lots can be said, but AFAIK, all that was ever said about FSD was that if you had HW2.5 (as in the original Model 3) and bought FSD, you would get the upgrades necessary to run FSD.

I don't remember any promises about stuff before then.

You could have another option, no upgrade path available!
That seems to be the path the HW3 vehicles will have to HW4, no available path.

 

[pelargir]

Given it is a recall, they sort of have to update the software.
<snip>

Granted, but there is a difference between occasionally upgrading the car's firmware to satisfy recalls and actually building out FSD for MCU1.

 

[ucmndd]

Lots can be said, but AFAIK, all that was ever said about FSD was that if you had HW2.5 (as in the original Model 3) and bought FSD, you would get the upgrades necessary to run FSD.

I don't remember any promises about stuff before then.

Uhh, the promises made in October 2016 are linked directly upthread.

 

[Dewg]

Given it is a recall, they sort of have to update the software. (Some people might not want the MCU2 "upgrade", as they would lose their AM radio.) It could be that they are waiting for the new NHTSA investigation to be completed, so that they can be sure that the changes they make will satisfy NHTSA. (Why put effort into putting the current fixes into MCU1 vehicles when NHTSA is already saying that it isn't enough. Just wait and do it once NHTSA has signed off on the requirements.)

They even have to code the recall changes for AP1.0 vehicles...

From NHTSA (for some context):

Are There Any Limitations to My Right to Have My Vehicle Remedied at No Charge?

Yes. There is a limitation based on the age of the vehicle. In order to be eligible for a free remedy, the vehicle cannot be more than 15 years old on the date the defect or noncompliance is determined. Under the law, the age of the vehicle is calculated from the date of sale to the first purchaser. For example, if a defect is found in 2003 and a recall ordered, manufacturers are required to make the correction available at no charge only for vehicles purchased new in 1994 through 2003. However, consumers should realize that even though manufacturers are not obligated to remedy safety defects in older cars, a safety problem might still exist. If you receive notification of a defect on a vehicle older than 15 years, take the responsibility to have your car repaired at your own expense – and eliminate unnecessary safety risks.

 

[MP3Mike]

From NHTSA (for some context):

Interesting, I didn't know that here was a 15 year cut-off, that allows manufacturers an out, so thanks for that.

Of course, no Tesla with AP was more than 15 years old when the recall was issued, so they have to remediate it free of charge.