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racevpr
Member
Due to ongoing routine investigations into what was one of the largest fires in Arizona in some time,
I am not at liberty to divulge some details, but we do own the EV community an explanation:
1 - Gruber Motor Company proudly displayed Tzero #2, kept it maintained and functioning, and
shared it with the EV community whenever possible. It was a treasured icon and watching visitors
request pictures with the car was heart warming. We were honored to have it.
2 - There were 6 Tesla Roadsters lost in the blaze. One was my 2011 Lightning Green daily driver,
Bubba Watson's car which started my personal love affair with Tesla cars, my personal commitment to
the EV movement, and our newest division - Gruber Motor Company.
3 - In addition to the 6 Roadsters lost in the blaze, we lost a Model S, and a Mercedes EV SmartCar, and my
4th generation modified 2008 Dodge Viper racecar. (Bought before my conversion to EV's)
4 - The rest of the Roadsters in the building were under restoration and scheduled to be reincarnated
and restored to their former glory which is always our ultimate goal. The non-restorable parts Roadsters
were outside and survived. And yes, there was a second lightning green Roadster inside undergoing
restoration.
5 - We have been successfully doing things Tesla does not offer - PEM repairs, and bricked battery
recovery. We also freely share our expertise when asked, support the Tesla Roadster community,
and are truly committed to becoming the foremost experts on these small demographic cars.
6 - We believe the first generation Roadster will become collectible, deserve to survive, and owners will be
interested in not only battery packs, but PEM upgrades and improvements including performance enhancing
products. No one should be sending these cars to the crusher or considering them end of life ever.
7 - It is business as usual here. We have 6 building here, and have relocated our EV division into
bldg C, our Power Services Building where we started this new venture. We have cars on their way in,
both for restoration, parts, parts cars, and customer cars.
8 - A corporation our size does not skimp on insurance. We are fully insured and the only customer car affected
was a $3000 Huyndai Elantra, part of our recently added benefits providing steep discounted automotive repair
for employees.
9 - Tesla Roadster, VIN #5, fortunately was in my garage at home at the time and survived.
Like Thomas Edison, who lost an entire factory in Orange Park NJ in 1914, we will also rebuild and our
commitment to EV vehicles is unwavering.
Pete Gruber
I am not at liberty to divulge some details, but we do own the EV community an explanation:
1 - Gruber Motor Company proudly displayed Tzero #2, kept it maintained and functioning, and
shared it with the EV community whenever possible. It was a treasured icon and watching visitors
request pictures with the car was heart warming. We were honored to have it.
2 - There were 6 Tesla Roadsters lost in the blaze. One was my 2011 Lightning Green daily driver,
Bubba Watson's car which started my personal love affair with Tesla cars, my personal commitment to
the EV movement, and our newest division - Gruber Motor Company.
3 - In addition to the 6 Roadsters lost in the blaze, we lost a Model S, and a Mercedes EV SmartCar, and my
4th generation modified 2008 Dodge Viper racecar. (Bought before my conversion to EV's)
4 - The rest of the Roadsters in the building were under restoration and scheduled to be reincarnated
and restored to their former glory which is always our ultimate goal. The non-restorable parts Roadsters
were outside and survived. And yes, there was a second lightning green Roadster inside undergoing
restoration.
5 - We have been successfully doing things Tesla does not offer - PEM repairs, and bricked battery
recovery. We also freely share our expertise when asked, support the Tesla Roadster community,
and are truly committed to becoming the foremost experts on these small demographic cars.
6 - We believe the first generation Roadster will become collectible, deserve to survive, and owners will be
interested in not only battery packs, but PEM upgrades and improvements including performance enhancing
products. No one should be sending these cars to the crusher or considering them end of life ever.
7 - It is business as usual here. We have 6 building here, and have relocated our EV division into
bldg C, our Power Services Building where we started this new venture. We have cars on their way in,
both for restoration, parts, parts cars, and customer cars.
8 - A corporation our size does not skimp on insurance. We are fully insured and the only customer car affected
was a $3000 Huyndai Elantra, part of our recently added benefits providing steep discounted automotive repair
for employees.
9 - Tesla Roadster, VIN #5, fortunately was in my garage at home at the time and survived.
Like Thomas Edison, who lost an entire factory in Orange Park NJ in 1914, we will also rebuild and our
commitment to EV vehicles is unwavering.
Pete Gruber
Pete,
Thanks for the update to the community. I'm glad that no humans were hurt.
As for the cars, it's sad to lose such historic cars, but I am glad to hear that at least one did survive, especially re: VIN#5. Especially if that's the Fusion Red that was recently sold by the widow of its former owner from Southern California last year.
Best Wishes.
The original story that alerted me to this has now been updated with more quotes and pictures.
I'm sure this didn't help. Sounds like the fire dept decided to let it burn and contain it rather than extinguish the fire at source due to not wanting to put water on lithium. Firefighters battle blaze at lithium battery warehouse in Phoenix
I'm sure this didn't help. Sounds like the fire dept decided to let it burn and contain it rather than extinguish the fire at source due to not wanting to put water on lithium. Firefighters battle blaze at lithium battery warehouse in Phoenix
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It's sad to see fire fighters continually mistake lithium battery fires with lithium-ion battery fires. Large volumes of water works perfectly fine in lithium-ion battery fires and is recommended.
But I guess from their perspective it's better to assume they are the same (and err on lithium side) than assume wrong and make matters worse with water.
wiztecy
Active Member
Good point. Zero would test their lithium batteries limits over a drum of water when experimenting and shorting out their battery packs to find their limitation. It would extinguish them when things went south, the worker had a leaver that would release them into the water when the battery flamed up. You do however still need to be cautious in avoiding the emitting chemical vapors.
Because in the story originally linked by Bonnie at the start of the thread it says:
This is wrong. If there was a battery already on fire it should have been drenched in water there and then.
This is wrong. If there was a battery already on fire it should have been drenched in water there and then.
There is not much relative difference in the reactivity of lithium metal vs. lithiated graphite (which is what is at the negative electrode of a typical Li-ion battery when it is charged). Besides inducing a fire, they both produce hydrogen gas when water is placed on them, enhancing the danger especially in confined spaces. On the flip side, there is usually less quantity of reactive lithiated graphite in a Li-ion battery so the cooling effects of copious amounts of water is believed by many to be an overall win. This has been studied in detailed by many fire professionals. It's mostly about the quantity of the hazard one is dealing with. In either type of battery, the fire gases are toxic, with much of the toxicity coming from burning electrolyte and other components. Indeed other components such as the flammable electrolyte and separator really catch fire and thus extinguishing methods besides class D extinguishers (metal powder) usually used for pure Li metal are recommended.
Regarding bricked batteries, if a battery is truly "bricked" , many or most of the cells have gone through an irreversible electrochemical process (at least two) which either rapidly degrades or destroys the intrinsic chemistry of the cell. In addition cells are likely degrade to different degrees. If you are not a professional, do not experiment with bringing a bricked battery back to life, a very, very bad move and an extreme waste of time if the battery is truly "bricked". Just forget about it and just be happy you have not made a bad situation worse. This is not a comment regarding the fire at Gruber as I have no idea what they were working on or what safeguards were in place or even that trying to bring a "bricked" battery back to life will cause a fire (at least immediately). However, at the very least, the cell degradation that occurs within a truly "bricked" battery is an irreversible degradation process, somewhat unpredictable and likely non uniform over the thousands of cells in the pack. Which at the very least will give you a crappy battery with much increased and varied resistance, or at the most an extremely unsafe one. The general concept of someone possibly recovering a "bricked" battery, and possibly selling that roadster to an unknowing purchaser is just really, really wrong. So any of you who believe they have done so, please disclose the fact if you ever sell the roadster or better yet don't sell it with the battery at all.
Regarding bricked batteries, if a battery is truly "bricked" , many or most of the cells have gone through an irreversible electrochemical process (at least two) which either rapidly degrades or destroys the intrinsic chemistry of the cell. In addition cells are likely degrade to different degrees. If you are not a professional, do not experiment with bringing a bricked battery back to life, a very, very bad move and an extreme waste of time if the battery is truly "bricked". Just forget about it and just be happy you have not made a bad situation worse. This is not a comment regarding the fire at Gruber as I have no idea what they were working on or what safeguards were in place or even that trying to bring a "bricked" battery back to life will cause a fire (at least immediately). However, at the very least, the cell degradation that occurs within a truly "bricked" battery is an irreversible degradation process, somewhat unpredictable and likely non uniform over the thousands of cells in the pack. Which at the very least will give you a crappy battery with much increased and varied resistance, or at the most an extremely unsafe one. The general concept of someone possibly recovering a "bricked" battery, and possibly selling that roadster to an unknowing purchaser is just really, really wrong. So any of you who believe they have done so, please disclose the fact if you ever sell the roadster or better yet don't sell it with the battery at all.
If you remove the individual cells and find that, say, 33% are still usable you may then use these in DIY battery banks. No need to recycle good cells. However, rebuilding Tesla battery modules is best left to Tesla.
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That report includes: "Tzero #2 that was destroyed in the fire was the last functional Tzero. Only one other Tzero still remains in existence but is out of commission and in need of a new battery, according to discussion taking place within the forum."
Wikipedia has a nice article on the T Zero at AC Propulsion tzero - Wikipedia
It says: "Launched in January 1997, only three prototypes were built and plans for commercial production were dropped in mid-2003. The name comes from t0, the mathematical symbol for a starting point in time.[1] Due to high production costs, AC Propulsion ceased to produce the tzero. Only three were built,[2] one of which is owned by the company itself, one by Gruber Power Services, a company that specializes in Tesla Roadster repair, and one privately."
Is there only one T Zero left, or are there two? What happened to the others?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
The exact cause is unknown, but Gruber Motor says its experimental battery techniques in repairing one of the vehicles may have caused it.
That sounds odd to me. It's a fire, not a lawsuit.
I'm glad you have insurance and will rebuild but as an EV enthusiast, I would like at least some explanation on the suspected cause.
Maybe because Tesla knows about the extreme danger involved, especially if that is the suspected cause of the fire? Is it really worth the risk? Plus, @ion_1 makes some good points for not repairing bricked batteries. Perhaps it's better to tell people to buy a new battery than trying to repair a bricked one?
After his fire, Thomas Edison was quoted as saying: “There is great value in disaster. All our mistakes are burned up. Thank God we can start anew.”
That might be some good advice.
That sounds odd to me. It's a fire, not a lawsuit.
I'm glad you have insurance and will rebuild but as an EV enthusiast, I would like at least some explanation on the suspected cause.
Maybe because Tesla knows about the extreme danger involved, especially if that is the suspected cause of the fire? Is it really worth the risk? Plus, @ion_1 makes some good points for not repairing bricked batteries. Perhaps it's better to tell people to buy a new battery than trying to repair a bricked one?
After his fire, Thomas Edison was quoted as saying: “There is great value in disaster. All our mistakes are burned up. Thank God we can start anew.”
That might be some good advice.
wiztecy
Active Member
> Is there only one T Zero left, or are there two? What happened to the others?
This is the best info I could find may still be of relevance since they mention Gruber as one of the owners, which was only a year ago was the unfortunate trading of hands:
"Only three were built,[2] one of which is owned by the company itself, one by Gruber Power Services, a company that specializes in Tesla Roadster repair, and one privately."
AC Propulsion tzero
This is the best info I could find may still be of relevance since they mention Gruber as one of the owners, which was only a year ago was the unfortunate trading of hands:
"Only three were built,[2] one of which is owned by the company itself, one by Gruber Power Services, a company that specializes in Tesla Roadster repair, and one privately."
AC Propulsion tzero
Right, I read that too. Gruber's is gone. Do we know if there is only one left, or are there two?
Dear TMC members: some of you have been very negative towards anyone that is a vendor when they are active on the forums other than in their advertising space. As someone who has needed parts and info about my project car, I can say unequivically that you are shooting yourself in the foot. Gruber is the only game in town for many parts for our cars and he has been extremely helpful and eager to share info with me. We should welcome any input Peter and others may have on various subjects.
You may not understand the history with this particular vendor. He and one of his employees came on the forum & didn't disclose they were associated with Gruber. They both vouched for how great Gruber was, singing Gruber's praises, etc etc.
When the community found out they were giving themselves praise, while pretending to be satisfied customers, it didn't go well. They lost a lot of credibility. Surely you can understand why.
On the other hand, this community has welcomed vendors like Titanium Dave, making his custom rotors a 'must have' if upgrading your Roadster.
thefortunes
Active Member
I do understand the history and was probably (I should go back and look) vocal in my distrust of Gruber due to what Bonnie described.
However Peter has also been helpful to me in my PEM repair.
He has gained back my trust. It is up to each person to make that decision for themselves.
However Peter has also been helpful to me in my PEM repair.
He has gained back my trust. It is up to each person to make that decision for themselves.
Absolutely agree. I just was explaining to @twiersum why many Roadster owners are distrustful of this particular vendor (and pointing out that there are some vendors welcomed with open arms, contrary to the opinion that this community is hard on vendors in general).
Rotarypower
Member
@twiersum.....ok that is a good point. It’s nice to know there is knowledge sharing going on from Gruber. So, in light of your latest rebuild of one of your Roadster’s batterys (details in another thread) I would ask that you please share your knowledge, experience, and details of your battery rebuild. There is no proprietary knowledge with Roadster owners, as everyone has pulled information from members on this forum and by other means, and it’s only fair to share additional knowledge gained in diving into and exploring additional DIY projects. So what I’ve seen from your battery rebuild, you have broken new ground with an impressive DIY project. Please share with our community.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." Isaac Newton, 1675
“The dwarf sees farther than the giant, when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on.” Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 1828
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