Firmware 6.0

[ecarfan]

Steve, thank you for posting that quote from a Tesla engineer confirming that regen was not changed in V6. That should convince people that they are simply imagining regen changes.

But my experience is that once humans take a public position on an issue and facts are then revealed that contradict their position, for some reason many humans are strangely reluctant to acknowledge they were in error.

Since I've only had my car for about 6 weeks and took delivery in Fremont, I still have a recent relationship with my delivery specialist. In the interests of full disclosure, I asked him directly if there were regen changes in 6.0. He passed my question on to a service manager in Palo Alto, and here is his response, verbatim.

I just spoke to one of our firmware engineers, he mentioned that there was no change to regen settings with the 6.0 update. It’s possible the regen setting (in controls-driving) could have changed with the update. Also, when the Model S is fully charged the regen is limited because the battery does not need the power. The regen power is gradually increased as range depletes. Please let me know if you have any more questions. Thank You
​

 

[smartypnz]

Not only has the Regen changed with v6.0, I am positive my Multi - Coat Red lost one of it's Coats.

 

[araxara]

Finally got the map update tonight.

 

[simonog]

Got v6 out on the big roads today and my conclusion is that cruise control is much improved. No longer snaps neck to edit +1 or -1 MPH. Disengage doesn't snap neck. Forgot to try the +-5 MPH edit.

I am reasonably certain you'll find it sooner. ("Reasonably" because I wish to avoid a new sub-thread on its being a placebo effect too!)

when end I first tried it I briefly wondered whether it was working then realised it was just much more gentle acceleration.

 

[Dukecat]

In terms of whether there is an appreciable difference between regen pre- and post-6.0, obviously both sides can agree to disagree. What's unfortunate, in my opinion, is the responses from those who are so willing to conclude that any different effect "is in one's head" or "is a placebo effect". Who's to say with all the intricacies, complexities, calculations, adjustments, bugs, etc., in the systems that it's impossible for regen to ever be affected even when a software update is not explicitly intended to make such a change? MS owners experience different issues that don't affect others across the board all the time. Perhaps we can just chalk this up to something that falls within that category.

I for one feel very confident in writing that after driving my P85+ for many months on the same roads in the same conditions, that there was a significant (and adverse) effect on regen immediately after 5.8 was installed. My car would cruise longer and require me to engage my brakes more quickly; that is, until I rebooted as recommended by others on this forum who felt the same issue. After rebooting, it was back to normal. Perhaps in that case, my car defaulted to the weaker regen, which is a possible outcome that even a Tesla rep apparently acknowledged as quoted in a recent post on this thread. Who is to say that the opposite - an appreciably more aggressive regen (at least, for me, when approaching a stop) - would be an impossible outcome? That's what I am feeling post-6.0 installation and post-reboot thereafter.

Others may not feel a change because others may not have it; or there may be a change, but they just don't feel the responsiveness like those of us with different driving experiences have learned to . . . My experiences include spending performance-driving and track-time in several BMW M's and Lamborghinis, together with continued ownership of an M6 upgraded with, among other things, increased sensitivity in throttle response.

Just to conclude the reason for this rant: It's one thing to comment that one is not experiencing something that others have reported. I think comparing notes is an important and highly valuable component of these forums. It's altogether different to conclude that what others are reportedly experiencing is in their head or is a placebo effect. In my opinion, generalized conclusions of this sort are baseless, illogical and not constructive.

 

[tomas]

I generally agree with you that people should show some respect, and that goes for both the people who say it absolutely has and those who say it absolutely hasn't. There is a very good reason the "hasn't" crowd is so adamant and uses words like placebo: unverified changes become folklore become history become fact. If it gets posted enough, it must be true. I encounter mythology like that constantly on this forum. Because readers drop in at any point in time, they may not understand the genesis of a myth. And in that way, press, public, prospective owners, new owners, and even haters get conjecture wrapped as fact. It is a fact that regen change has not been documented or verified. It is opinion and personal perception of some that it has changed. Peace to everybody!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Just to conclude the reason for this rant: It's one thing to comment that one is not experiencing something that others have reported. I think comparing notes is an important and highly valuable component of these forums. It's altogether different to conclude that what others are reportedly experiencing is in their head or is a placebo effect. In my opinion, generalized conclusions of this sort are baseless, illogical and not constructive.

I'm stating an opinion that it's a placebo effect. My opinion is as valid as yours. What you're saying above is that it's okay to state your opinion, but any others are baseless, illogical and not constructive. Says you. I say differently. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't denigrate the opinions of others simply because they express an opinion that differs from your own. Don't take people's opinions so personally. If you notice a difference, that's great. If your car is unique from the others, even better. The fact that I still think it's in your head should have no impact on how you feel and what you believe.

Tesla's official response is that there have been no changes. Are you saying that Tesla is lying? Or are you implying that Tesla is unaware of the changes it makes to its own software, changes which alter the car's braking distance and which would potentially lead to a NHTSA investigation?

 

[redi]

I have noted two "bugs" I'm attributing to the v6 firmware (for now):

1. When NAV in full screen the map spuriously zooms in periodically - once every 10-30 seconds or so - eventually becoming fully zoomed in. Rebooting does not change the behavior.

2. Playing a slacker playlist from favorites, approximately every 30 minutes or so the playlist will "jump" to another favorite playlist and the previous favorite "disappears" from the favorites list. Rebooting does not restore the lost playlist to favorites, it must be reselected and marked as a favorite.

3. This morning I could not get the homelink "list" to pull down long enough to select the appropriate saved homelink entry - the menu would immediately close. Rebooting did fix this problem.

I have scanned the thread and did not see these reported. Anyone else?

 

[Todd Burch]

I have noted two "bugs" I'm attributing to the v6 firmware (for now):

1. When NAV in full screen the map spuriously zooms in periodically - once every 10-30 seconds or so - eventually becoming fully zoomed in. Rebooting does not change the behavior.

2. Playing a slacker playlist from favorites, approximately every 30 minutes or so the playlist will "jump" to another favorite playlist and the previous favorite "disappears" from the favorites list. Rebooting does not restore the lost playlist to favorites, it must be reselected and marked as a favorite.

3. This morning I could not get the homelink "list" to pull down long enough to select the appropriate saved homelink entry - the menu would immediately close. Rebooting did fix this problem.

I have scanned the thread and did not see these reported. Anyone else?

Regarding issue #1, are you sure you don't have a touchscreen booger that's causing an unintentional touch?

 

[redi]

Regarding issue #1, are you sure you don't have a touchscreen booger that's causing an unintentional touch?

Yes from what I can see my touch screen is a booger-free zone.

However I have been seeing oddities (uncommanded changes) that I cannot figure out (media changes, home-link pull down not working, etc). Sometimes a reboot solves it.

From watching the problem for a while longer I suspect it's in fact a bad or problematic mfd screen.

 

[Todd Burch]

Yes from what I can seem my touch screen is a booger-free zone.

Well that's comforting at least.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I use nav in full screen and have not experienced what you describe under 6.0 (.15).

 

[Dukecat]

I'm stating an opinion that it's a placebo effect. My opinion is as valid as yours. What you're saying above is that it's okay to state your opinion, but any others are baseless, illogical and not constructive. Says you. I say differently. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't denigrate the opinions of others simply because they express an opinion that differs from your own. Don't take people's opinions so personally. If you notice a difference, that's great. If your car is unique from the others, even better. The fact that I still think it's in your head should have no impact on how you feel and what you believe.

Tesla's official response is that there have been no changes. Are you saying that Tesla is lying? Or are you implying that Tesla is unaware of the changes it makes to its own software, changes which alter the car's braking distance and which would potentially lead to a NHTSA investigation?

When it comes to opinions, personally, I draw the line and don't go beyond what I see or feel with my particular car and driving experiences. I don't make any assumptions and certainly don't offer any conclusions about others' experiences evidenced by anecdotal descriptions, because I personally find it inappropriate and baseless - because I don't know any facts underlying their situations other than what they write (and I have no reason to second guess their opinions), illogical - how can I deduce anything about others' experiences if I don't have any facts; just their anecdotal statements underlying their respective situations?, and not constructive - because in my opinion such conclusory statements don't add anything to the conversation. But to come full circle, yes, of course you are entitled to your opinion about what others experience. I personally find it inappropriate and choose not to do so for the reasons I stated above.

No, I am not saying that Tesla is lying. To answer your question about whether Tesla is unaware of changes it makes to its own software, I will introduce one item in particular as Exhibit A, which is applicable to all software: bugs. Even Tesla purportedly acknowledged in the "official response" you referenced that regen could be in a different default setting after a software update, so yes, even by their own account, regen behavior could be affected even if changes were unintended. Why some people are willing to accept when others report unintended changes to the behavior of Slacker, navigation and other systems, but not regen, I do not know. Perhaps because it's more difficult to be objectively provable without more time and energy that likely not many of us have? Personally, I find it illogical to make what in my opinion is a rather artificial distinction. Nevertheless, I am very happy with 6.0 and the regen behavior operating thereunder.

In conclusion: Yes, we both agree that each is entitled to his/her own opinion. You do not feel a difference and because Tesla never said regen effects were in the 6.0 design, those who feel anything are simply wrong and imagining it. I am willing to accept at face value, and certainly not challenge, those who state otherwise because I feel it myself and believe regen effects are not immune to software updates, as purportedly acknowledged by Tesla in the recent "official response" on this thread.

 

[Johan]

When it comes to opinions, personally, I draw the line and don't go beyond what I see or feel with my particular car and driving experiences. I don't make any assumptions and certainly don't offer any conclusions about others' experiences evidenced by anecdotal descriptions, because I personally find it inappropriate and baseless - because I don't know any facts underlying their situations other than what they write (and I have no reason to second guess their opinions), illogical - how can I deduce anything about others' experiences if I don't have any facts; just their anecdotal statements underlying their respective situations?, and not constructive - because in my opinion such conclusory statements don't add anything to the conversation. But to come full circle, yes, of course you are entitled to your opinion about what others experience. I personally find it inappropriate and choose not to do so for the reasons I stated above.

No, I am not saying that Tesla is lying. To answer your question about whether Tesla is unaware of changes it makes to its own software, I will introduce one item in particular as Exhibit A, which is applicable to all software: bugs. Even Tesla purportedly acknowledged in the "official response" you referenced that regen could be in a different default setting after a software update, so yes, even by their own account, regen behavior could be affected even if changes were unintended. Why some people are willing to accept when others report unintended changes to the behavior of Slacker, navigation and other systems, but not regen, I do not know. Perhaps because it's more difficult to be objectively provable without more time and energy that likely not many of us have? Personally, I find it illogical to make what in my opinion is a rather artificial distinction. Nevertheless, I am very happy with 6.0 and the regen behavior operating thereunder.

In conclusion: Yes, we both agree that each is entitled to his/her own opinion. You do not feel a difference and because Tesla never said regen effects were in the 6.0 design, those who feel anything are simply wrong and imagining it. I am willing to accept at face value, and certainly not challenge, those who state otherwise because I feel it myself and believe regen effects are not immune to software updates, as purportedly acknowledged by Tesla in the recent "official response" on this thread.

1st: I very much agree with your main premise - i.e. that software updates can and will have complex effects on among other things driving dynamics that will be hard, if not impossible, for Tesla to know beforehand on every vehicle out there.

2nd: Your writing style is very nice, very consice, polite and you structure your argument very well. All your posts follow the same pattern and end with a conclusion paragraph that wraps it up beatifully and eloquently. You are an experienced and skilled lawyer, right? With a lof of experience in adressing the court or a jury. I mean, in the post I quoted above you even did the whole "... I present you with Exhibit A...". Reading it I pictured you in a court room.

 

[hans]

 

[SteveS0353]

When it comes to opinions, personally, I draw the line and don't go beyond what I see or feel with my particular car and driving experiences. I don't make any assumptions and certainly don't offer any conclusions about others' experiences evidenced by anecdotal descriptions, because I personally find it inappropriate and baseless - because I don't know any facts underlying their situations other than what they write (and I have no reason to second guess their opinions), illogical - how can I deduce anything about others' experiences if I don't have any facts; just their anecdotal statements underlying their respective situations?, and not constructive - because in my opinion such conclusory statements don't add anything to the conversation. But to come full circle, yes, of course you are entitled to your opinion about what others experience. I personally find it inappropriate and choose not to do so for the reasons I stated above.

No, I am not saying that Tesla is lying. To answer your question about whether Tesla is unaware of changes it makes to its own software, I will introduce one item in particular as Exhibit A, which is applicable to all software: bugs. Even Tesla purportedly acknowledged in the "official response" you referenced that regen could be in a different default setting after a software update, so yes, even by their own account, regen behavior could be affected even if changes were unintended. Why some people are willing to accept when others report unintended changes to the behavior of Slacker, navigation and other systems, but not regen, I do not know. Perhaps because it's more difficult to be objectively provable without more time and energy that likely not many of us have? Personally, I find it illogical to make what in my opinion is a rather artificial distinction. Nevertheless, I am very happy with 6.0 and the regen behavior operating thereunder.

In conclusion: Yes, we both agree that each is entitled to his/her own opinion. You do not feel a difference and because Tesla never said regen effects were in the 6.0 design, those who feel anything are simply wrong and imagining it. I am willing to accept at face value, and certainly not challenge, those who state otherwise because I feel it myself and believe regen effects are not immune to software updates, as purportedly acknowledged by Tesla in the recent "official response" on this thread.

Even though I wrote that I would shut up (#915), despite the response I received from Tesla firmware engineering and me being as objective as I can be with that knowledge, I have to report that I am still experiencing a slight change in regen characteristics. My P85+ regen under 6.0 (.15) is definitely softer without the "jolt" when canceling cruise control at highway speeds or suddenly backing off the accelerator. The regen still reaches the maximum power of 60kW in standard mode, so the peak stopping power has not changed.

For completeness, I keep the battery charged around 70% (recommended for pack longevity), and that's been true both before and after the upgrade to 6.0 (.15), thus minimizing any battery pack charge level effect on regen power.

I'm an engineer, and it it occurred to me too that it could be an unintended effect of some other change in what I can imagine is pretty complex code. I don't have the ability to directly compare regen under 5.12 and 6.0 on the same hardware, and I don't have nor can I create any objective evidence to support my perception. I still don't think it's material or dangerous, it's a slight effect, but it makes the driving experience smoother IMHO.

 

[Dukecat]

Johan - Yes, I am a practicing attorney. Thank you for your kind words and navigating my "Wall of Text" (Thanks, Hans :smile to succinctly describe my main premise.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't think it's material or dangerous, it's a slight effect, but it makes the driving experience smoother IMHO.

I agree.

 

[brianman]

At risk of stirring up the pot...

For those that are reporting "a different experience" with 6.0 WRT regen, is the entire difference related to engage/disengage/speed-adjust of cruise control OR is there a difference in experience in other aspects of regen (i.e. with cruise control disabled for the entire journey)?

My point being ... perhaps the focus should be on analyzed perceived differences in cruise control rather than in regen. Speaking for myself, I haven't used cruise control much at all since 6.0 so I don't have any experiences to report on that subject just yet.

 

[SteveS0353]

At risk of stirring up the pot...

For those that are reporting "a different experience" with 6.0 WRT regen, is the entire difference related to engage/disengage/speed-adjust of cruise control OR is there a difference in experience in other aspects of regen (i.e. with cruise control disabled for the entire journey)?

My point being ... perhaps the focus should be on analyzed perceived differences in cruise control rather than in regen. Speaking for myself, I haven't used cruise control much at all since 6.0 so I don't have any experiences to report on that subject just yet.

For me, it's independent of cruise control. I mentioned cruise control because that's a very quick and repeatable way to engage regenerative braking, but quickly lifting my foot off the go pedal has the exact same effect.

 

[Dukecat]

For those that are reporting "a different experience" with 6.0 WRT regen, is the entire difference related to engage/disengage/speed-adjust of cruise control OR is there a difference in experience in other aspects of regen (i.e. with cruise control disabled for the entire journey)?

My point being ... perhaps the focus should be on analyzed perceived differences in cruise control rather than in regen. Speaking for myself, I haven't used cruise control much at all since 6.0 so I don't have any experiences to report on that subject just yet.

My experience reported in this thread is focused on regen without cruise control in the mix. My use of cruise control post-6.0 install has been too infrequent for me to comfortably detail any conclusions on that just yet.