That is not an answer to my question and you know it sir - you just implied you're unhappy that the state of the cars does not match Elon's promised timeframe. That's a totally different issue. My question is a technical one - do you think the learning project is going slower than it should be or is it learning as fast as can be expected? If Tesla is making technological progress as fast as we can expect them to then I think we can agree that AP2's results are in fact fantastic - while also saying that we think Musk should not have promised his more optimistic timeframes.
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First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona
- Thread starter Bladerskb
- Start date
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
This question needs to be divided into its individual constituents...
So, if we have reason to believe that Tesla's
(1) rate of development
(2) of AP2's skills
(3) and performance
is
(4) sub-optimal,
given
(5) the hardware and software they started with in Oct 2016
(5.1) - that it could
(5.2) and should
(5.3) have been further than it is
(5.4) in its dev cycle,
... then we have to explain why.
Right? Was that right?
By the way, my point isn't that I am unhappy with the progress not matching Tesla's (not just Elon's) promised timeframe, I am mainly stating that it is not matching it - and that, then, is enough to consider it going slower than it should. Selling cars with one expectation and then not delivering is not sufficient progress.
As for the rest, my main disappointment in AP2 is that it is not progressing in my books. It is one step forward and two steps back kind of thing. I consider it more dangerous these days than when I got my car in Q1. Smoother at times, sure, but then more dangerous at other times. I haven't gotten a sense of direction or progression from it, more a case of fumbling around in the dark.
Maybe that will change. I have a vested interest in it changing - I expect to keep the Model X for some years. I want AP2 to work, I want to like AP2, I want it to help me travel distance on the occasions I do. Currently that is not the sense I am getting from it and, frankly, given Tesla's talk on Q4/2016 as well as the experiences with AP1, I did expect it to be doing that by now.
I keep trying it, but no way can I trust it enough to use it beyond very carefully (and forcefully) monitored testing circumstances... Maybe that will change, but that is the experience so far.
And yes, I did expect to have a vision-based blind-spot monitoring by now, too.
Its official now:
The new A8 will NOT include the required hardware for L3 until further notice. Although Audi made a big marketing buzz the hardware for autonomous driving (in traffic jams) on the claimed L3 will not be included on delivered vehicles AND cannot be included in that version of the car at a later point in time. For that to be included a buyer needs to wait until Audi decides to include the hardware and order at that time. No due date as of today.
Furthermore even if it would be included the lawmakers in Germany need to agree on laws for it which is expected to be some time in 2018. That may be different in other countries though.
Audi A8 - nicht alles für den Kunden
The new A8 will NOT include the required hardware for L3 until further notice. Although Audi made a big marketing buzz the hardware for autonomous driving (in traffic jams) on the claimed L3 will not be included on delivered vehicles AND cannot be included in that version of the car at a later point in time. For that to be included a buyer needs to wait until Audi decides to include the hardware and order at that time. No due date as of today.
Furthermore even if it would be included the lawmakers in Germany need to agree on laws for it which is expected to be some time in 2018. That may be different in other countries though.
Audi A8 - nicht alles für den Kunden
It was never going to ship in the first cars anyway? It is waiting for legislation and Audi doesn't pre-sell. The expectation always was that it will appear in one market, e.g. Germany, first once legilation allows.
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Wow. I thought the A8 would roll out with both HW and SW necessary for L3. Even if the owners had to wait for some laws
The softare upgradeability remains to be seen of course, but it would be a first for Audi to ship a product that is not available for use yet (well, second, they did ship some cars without rear-view cameras after Fukushima). They are not Tesla who promises the moon and ships beforehand.
Maybe this will change with Audi and others (Volvo already showing some signs with Pilot Assist 1 to 2), but I'm not sure what was the expectation based on that it would change now.
This system will appear in a step-by-step manner and become available in different versions in different markets. What that will be remains to be seen. I expect a conservative approach, rather than an aggressive one.
As said, until that happens, Tesla still has time to claim the Level 3 crown.
One nice thing about Audi: They show you the future system beforehand. You can decide to wait for it. Audi did the same when the last Audi A8 launched by showing the new Google Maps for 3G which appeared around 6-9 months after the first cars shipped (with 2G and without Google Maps). You could choose to wait or not. Tesla rarely shows beforehand what is coming in the next hardware update to the car...
My personal guess is that the Traffic Jam Pilot hardware might become available around week 22/2018 for the European 2019 model year, earliest.
What they ship will have no capabilities like shown in the Videos included and you cannot decide even at a later time to upgrade your car but need to buy a brand new car with the required HW included - thats what written in the Article. Not clear about SW here. I guess reports in English will appear today in the press.
Comparing the Videos between Tesla and Audi it looks to me like the only real difference between the 2 today boils down in traffic jam assistant legal liability on the automaker side anyway.
Would love to see Tesla get to L3 but we may see delays and a postponement of the coast to coast autonomous drive later this year too. It went pretty silent on that front lately.
Agree to the other points you made.
Comparing the Videos between Tesla and Audi it looks to me like the only real difference between the 2 today boils down in traffic jam assistant legal liability on the automaker side anyway.
Would love to see Tesla get to L3 but we may see delays and a postponement of the coast to coast autonomous drive later this year too. It went pretty silent on that front lately.
Agree to the other points you made.
The whole automotive industry is moving towards a new paradigm of forward looking marketing to sell what is available today.
"Our car will fly Mach 2.1 soon. So buy our cars today!"
"Our car will fly Mach 2.1 soon. So buy our cars today!"
LOL, what a joke. So its not even close to the world's first L3 car. Its yet another demoware overhyped car. "Soon" will be an industry standard now thanks to Musk's hype machine.
World's first Level 3 car will be whomever releases the first Level 3 car. Do you have some other Level 3 car in mind that will be first?
Automotive industry has always demoed forward-looking products and concepts. Wholly new is Elon Musk selling them before they are ready.
I checked the price list and they are not selling a highway assistant in any form, but it does seem to include the full sensor suite. They sell an extra functionality package for cities (which has some nifty assistants). I assume what it has is the standard Audi assistant systems for highway.
I assume it does not ship with the Audi AI button, the black box required for Level 3 and I wonder if it has the same computer, though obviously it has EyeQ3 still (it has many standard things like traffic sign recognition). It does seem to have Lidar already too, but I am not exactly certain of that based on the material...
If history is any judge, Traffic Jam Pilot will become available on the pricelist when it can as a separate entry and that will then include whatever is left out - as well as the software. Until then the sensor suite is used for more traditional assistant systems.
World's first Level 3 car will be whomever releases the first Level 3 car. Do you have some other Level 3 car in mind that will be first?
Automotive industry has always demoed forward-looking products and concepts. Wholly new is Elon Musk selling them before they are ready.
They clearly called them concepts when they are not selling them. Audi said 2018 L3. This entire thread is filled with claims of that. It seems this is yet another humbling erroroneous claim on the part of @Bladerskb. Oh wait, I forgot, he's never wrong.
OK, finally had time to read what the new Audi A8 has as standard.
It has a substantial Level 2 suite, nothing to sniff about. The Traffic Jam Pilot, as said, is not available in the 2017 car yet.
So, it has front Lidar as standard from the first 2017 version as well as corner and frontal radars. I guess that makes it the first consumer production car to ship with Lidar. It has auto-steering - including automatic collission avoidance assistance in both straight driving and while turning in intersections. These, like adaptive cruise, are standard.
It has around 40 different assistants for wide range of different scenarios, including functions similar to summon remotely, also into parking spots of different orientations. Of course there is also blind spot detection, lateral traffic detection, 360 degree vision, night vision, pedestrian detection, headlights that change shape to highlight events or fade others, HUD etc. For an extra cost of 1400 euro, you get lateral sensing system that monitor complex intersections as well. It also has assistance that will stop opening a door if you are opening onto on-coming traffic.
Most important of all: And it has adaptive, heated automatic windshield wipers that control the way washing fluid is distributed based on the scenario!
The 360 degree vision is particularly nifty because you can basically zoom and rotate it whichever way and see a 3D image of the car superimposed:
It has a substantial Level 2 suite, nothing to sniff about. The Traffic Jam Pilot, as said, is not available in the 2017 car yet.
So, it has front Lidar as standard from the first 2017 version as well as corner and frontal radars. I guess that makes it the first consumer production car to ship with Lidar. It has auto-steering - including automatic collission avoidance assistance in both straight driving and while turning in intersections. These, like adaptive cruise, are standard.
It has around 40 different assistants for wide range of different scenarios, including functions similar to summon remotely, also into parking spots of different orientations. Of course there is also blind spot detection, lateral traffic detection, 360 degree vision, night vision, pedestrian detection, headlights that change shape to highlight events or fade others, HUD etc. For an extra cost of 1400 euro, you get lateral sensing system that monitor complex intersections as well. It also has assistance that will stop opening a door if you are opening onto on-coming traffic.
Most important of all: And it has adaptive, heated automatic windshield wipers that control the way washing fluid is distributed based on the scenario!
The 360 degree vision is particularly nifty because you can basically zoom and rotate it whichever way and see a 3D image of the car superimposed:
Well, first of all, just because Audi A8 on sale on October 6th, 2017 does not yet include the Level 3 system, that does not mean it won't appear in 2018...
Or what is this, for Tesla 2018 ends December 31st 2018, but for Audi it ends October 6th, 2017?
Oh the double standards... As for the 2019 date in the press, I don't think that means anything yet. The system can come in 2018 or it could be delayed to 2020 or whatever - that statement means nothing, really, we can't trust it.If Audi fails to bring Level 3 out in 2018, and/or fails to be the first at it, then I will join the gloating. We shall see. But nobody here expected the Level 3 system on sale in 2017. That's just making things up.
Seems Motor-Talk.de agrees with my guess, which would be the usual with a new model:
https://www.motor-talk.de/news/der-a8-ist-zu-modern-fuer-seinen-marktstart-t6158765.html
lunitiks
Cool James & Black Teacher
Well I'll admit I'm surprised.
Let's recapitulate:
Today's news kind of ruins this, doesn't it? Or are the journalists wrong? WTF is going on?
Let's recapitulate:
- The Level 3 Audi A8 Will Almost Be The Most Important Car In The World
- Audi’s New A8 Turns Mobility Into Magic
- Audi claims the A8 is the first production car to reach Level 3 autonomy
Today's news kind of ruins this, doesn't it? Or are the journalists wrong? WTF is going on?
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