First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

[AnxietyRanger]

The entire concept of trial and error and learning from risky mistakes, sometimes at the cost of the customers is very much unknown in Germany and considered evil and a no go. A nice example is the M3 ramp up that proves how you can accelerate the complex launch process. No German Automaker who'd every even try to use such an approach.

Yes, the experimental, fast-moving Silicon Valley approach is being discussed in various threads over on TMC. A lot of the time it is agreed it is not very nice for the customers who get caught in the middle, but it can get results, no doubt.

That said, AP2 is so far not getting very flattering results.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The mistakes of other drivers doesn't make the system any better. It just doesn't do what it's supposed to do - all the time in the video, not just once.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 

[calisnow]

You keep saying that, but it just isn't true - that is the same takeover request that happens all the time in that system, it was not an immediate takeover request. There is no "immediate takeover request" in the system, there is just that one takeover request.

Has it dawned on any of you in this thread that you are arguing away in great detail about the larger implications for a system of one data sample - a 30 second youtube video? More forest - fewer trees folks. Induction is epistemologically problematic enough in the best of times - let alone trying to use one data sample to learn something. You're all wasting your time.

What needs to be done - and will be quite fun - is to get some folks together, rent a Caddy this fall for a few days, rent an A8 when that comes out (or get some geeks who own them) and do some very detailed, lengthy comparison driving on a mixed-condition road course. That is the only way any meaningful info will be learned about which systems, if any, are superior in the real world. Notice that the car mags have not done another comparison test after the one two years ago that saw Tesla severely embarrass every competitor. The competitors advertise in that magazine - Tesla does not. This is the most fascinating topic in the automotive world right now yet no more comparison tests have been done. It isn't crazy to imagine that the "big auto" advertisers had some harsh words for the C&D editors (or was it R&T?) - which would explain the absence of any more tests. They took a 20 mile loop somewhere in Michigan and drove a Tesla/BMW/Benz/Infiniti - and gave detailed impressions reports plus did some drop-out frequency testing to try to quantify things.

It's high time for another one - and the only way it will happen is if we do it ourselves.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Has it dawned on any of you

It dawned on me many years ago how pointless most Internet conversations are. I never learn to act on that, though.

I'm all for a comparison. The more the merrier, the sooner the better.

 

[calisnow]

It dawned on me many years ago how pointless most Internet conversations are. I never learn to act on that, though.

I'm all for a comparison. The more the merrier, the sooner the better.

I tried to interest folks on the Benz forum to meet up with a 2017 E Class but no takers. If you read other car forums one thing that sticks out is just how little interest there is in autonomous driving technology compared to the rabid nuts we are as Tesla owners. You'd think you'd find endless detailed discussion of MBZ drive pilot, endless anticipation for Cadillac's Super Cruise - but there's very little. We are outliers I guess.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I tried to interest folks on the Benz forum to meet up with a 2017 E Class but no takers. If you read other car forums one thing that sticks out is just how little interest there is in autonomous driving technology compared to the rabid nuts we are as Tesla owners. You'd think you'd find endless detailed discussion of MBZ drive pilot, endless anticipation for Cadillac's Super Cruise - but there's very little. We are outliers I guess.

Two things, I'd say:

1) AP1 attracted a lot of attention and folks that are into this kind of stuff. AP1 was very successful. AP2 promising FSD helped too, at first at least...

2) And of course BEVs in general and Teslas in particular attract people into tech.

That said, some may have noted that I have a certain liking to Audi's approach and that is because they have at least as a company been talking autonomous for a very long time. I remember when zFAS - Audi's name for their autonomous computer - took up the whole trunk and drove a car to the stage maybe a little under decade or so ago. The evolution of that system is first being introduced in the new Audi A8. That's why I'm paying particular attention to that and, I guess, have more faith in that than many people who may not have followed its various iterations over the years...

 

[StefanSarzio]

[...]Audi's approach and that is because they have at least as a company been talking [...]

That's the reason they are called "Ankündigungsweltmeister". (Champion of announcements)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That's the reason they are called "Ankündigungsweltmeister". (Champion of announcements)

We just have to agree to disagree again. I don't find the autonomous driving one of the instances fitting under that label. It is a hard problem that Audi has been working on consistently toward and not going back and forth (unlike their BEV program).

 

[stopcrazypp]

That's the reason they are called "Ankündigungsweltmeister". (Champion of announcements)

I thought only in the US they had the reputation, not their own home country. I guess they are internationally known like that.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I thought only in the US they had the reputation, not their own home country. I guess they are internationally known like that.

Their BEV back and forth got them some enemies for sure, even within the company.

I think @StefanSarzio's reaction is more telling of Audi's reputation in the BEV community than any meaningful analysis of their autonomous reputation.

Same with U.S.

IMO it would be wise not to mix these two separate sub-industries in the analysis. Audi's autonomous approach has got nothing to do with their BEV fame.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

By the way, Ankündigungsweltmeister is a German concept like Fascinazation that does not quite translate that simply.

Pretty much everything, including Elon Musk, has been called Ankündigungsweltmeister.

It is a general word, not something specific reserved for Audi. Don't be fooled.

 

[lunitiks]

Ankündigung = Announcement
Weltmeister = World champion

That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Ankündigung = Announcement
Weltmeister = World champion

That's pretty much all there is to it.

My point is, this word is a concept in German. It is not something that Audi specifically is known for, nor is it sufficient to just directly translate it. It is something that is used to disparage companies and executives in general.

It has cultural meaning in Germany.

A bit like you can't just translate Faszination as fascination. That isn't the full meaning.

 

[StefanSarzio]

I think it's more a kind of mocking than an analysis or actual concept.

I think @lunitiks is right with "That's pretty much all there is to it."

Don't overcomplicate.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think it's more a kind of mocking than an analysis or actual concept.

I think @lunitiks is right with "That's pretty much all there is to it."

Don't overcomplicate.

It is a common phrase, is my point.

Not something specific to Audi, as it was made to sound like here.

Some may also be confused by the fact that German writes nouns with a capital letter.

Heck, even "Elon Musk Ankündigungsweltmeister" Google gets 300 hits.

 

[J1mbo]

"Audi Ankündigungsweltmeister" gets 503+ Google hits.

What have we proven here?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

"Audi Ankündigungsweltmeister" gets 503+ Google hits.

What have we proven here?

And Tesla gets ~490.

I am not sure, but my understanding is the word may have its roots in politics.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I was thinking about this conversation this morning. I wonder if this analogy might help:

How would one respond if I were to post something like this:

That's the reason Tesla are called "SCAM".

vs.

That's the reason [Audi] are called "Ankündigungsweltmeister". (Champion of announcements)

Technically it is true, Tesla apparently are called SCAM by someone. I am confident Audi is also called Ankündigungsweltmeister by someone.

But that's the extent of the truth of it, really... and that's the hard part online. It is hard to know when someone is extrapolating excessively and when they are conveying a real, larger sentiment...

 

[calisnow]

Yes, the experimental, fast-moving Silicon Valley approach is being discussed in various threads over on TMC. A lot of the time it is agreed it is not very nice for the customers who get caught in the middle, but it can get results, no doubt.

That said, AP2 is so far not getting very flattering results.

AP2 is getting extremely flattering results. If you have reason to believe that Tesla's rate of development of AP2's skills and performance is sub-optimal given the hardware and software they started with in Oct 2016 - that it could and should have be further than it is at this point in its dev cycle - then explain why.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

AP2 is getting extremely flattering results. If you have reason to believe that Tesla's rate of development of AP2's skills and performance is sub-optimal given the hardware and software they started with in Oct 2016 - that it could and should have be further than it is at this point in its dev cycle - then explain why.