For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[Urbancowboy]

I've listed facts.

Then pointed out the only theory that actually fits those facts


Let's see where specifically you're jumping off my logic train.


Facts:
Tesla is now actively using two different rear DUs in Model 3 production, and was not for the first ~1.5 years of life where they only used the 980?

Tesla is still using the 980 in all P models, but now using the 990 in AWD models? Tesla is NOT using the 990 in any P vehicles at all.

Tesla has several times, including in explicit statements, made clear they abhor increasing manufacturing complexity or adding alternative parts without very good reason/need, and avoid doing so as much as possible... (again see how much nicer the SR interior is than it was supposed to be as but one of many examples of this being a fact).


Ok, so, those are facts- do you agree they are facts?


Once you have those, logic requires you to admit there must be a very good reason they're using the 990 in the AWD at all.

Now let's apply logic to the possible reason(s).

A) Lower cost, but lower performance- That certainly fits the existing facts at least. Enough lower cost in fact it's worth bothering adding complexity. And since it's ONLY going into AWD the lower performance is ok. So we can leave this on the "possible" reasons... agree to THAT much?

B) Lower cost, same OR better performance- We can easily eliminate this one. If that were the case it'd be in the P too wouldn't it? It's not.

C) Same or higher cost-same performance- We can easily eliminate these too...there's no reason at all for the 990 to exist if it was true.

D) Same or higher cost- higher performance- We can easily eliminate this one as well- It'd be showing up in the P (for a future Lud mode maybe), not the AWD. That is counter-factual to what is happening.



I can think of no OTHER possible reasons besides those listed above.

All but the first (A) are impossible based on the facts we have and can be easily eliminated.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

And the truth in this case isn't even all that improbable. Much cheaper, lower capability, motor, going in the car they make/sell a lot more of, and which doesn't need the higher capability.


Otherwise the existence, and use in the AWD only, of the 990 does not make any sense.

Didn’t read past your first sentence.

You have a theory.

Prove to me with facts or evidence the 990 is cheaper or less capable than the 980.

That it exists is not factual evidence of its price or capabilities. To suggest otherwise, despite hundreds of words explaining your logic (which by the way I fully comprehend and is reasonable), is incorrect.

 

[hg46038]

Just need to see someone with P3D with 990 to counter the theory. none so far from other thread

 

[Knightshade]

Didn’t read past your first sentence.

Clearly

You have a theory.

Prove to me with facts or evidence the 990 is cheaper or less capable than the 980.

That it exists is not factual evidence of its price or capabilities. To suggest otherwise, despite hundreds of words explaining your logic (which by the way I fully comprehend and is reasonable), is incorrect.

So...you didn't read it- but somehow fully comprehend and understand it?

I agree something's incorrect here, but it ain't me


I listed several actual known facts

The pointed out the only reason the 990 would exist at all, based on known facts would be if it were cheaper OR better (or both)

If it were better it'd be in the P, not the AWD only. That it isn't in the P is a known fact. So that's out.

If it were cheaper, and equal, it'd be in BOTH versions. That it isn't in both is a known fact. So that's out.

The only choice left is cheaper, and not equal. In which case it'd go in the AWD but not the P. That it IS in the AWD is a known fact.



So again, what I've explained to you fits every known fact we have- and appears to be the only thing that does.

 

[Urbancowboy]

Clearly





So...you didn't read it- but somehow fully comprehend and understand it?

I agree something's incorrect here, but it ain't me

Your original post explained your logic just fine. Word vomit doesn’t always add clarity.

Show me actual hard evidence to prove the 990 is less expensive and/or less capable than the 980.

Anything else is a waste of time.

 

[Knightshade]

Your logic makes perfect sense. So the earlier AWDs with 980 may actually have a path to P3D-. It's definitely a good deal to buy P3D- for 2k more to get a better DU and performance.

Yup.

And if the 990 means "new" AWDs don't have that path it eliminates the objection of "But it will hurt future P sales"

It won't, because future AWD buyers won't be able to unlock P later- so they'll still be in the same situation as today where they have to decide on P before purchase... but the earlier AWD guys get the choice to add it and Tesla gets some free money.

So all the ghost or stealt model 18-19-OR 20 have a 980 REAR MOTOR ? not sure about that !!!

Why aren't you sure?

There's a whole thread about this, and every P owner who ever posted their rear DU PN showed a 980. Even quite recently.

As had every AWD owner until earlier this year when they switched over to the 990, but only for AWD (non P) cars.

 

[Rick71]

All the DU PN show was earlier (before august ) 2019 was 980 you are correct
but i want to see late 19 and 2020 DU PN

 

[MrHopsing]

The 980 is probably more expensive because of the binning process so they can guarantee sustained higher current over longer period. Before when production wasn't that high they probably binned all the motors, but now only some go through the process and gets stamped a different PN. Probably why all the P3D- showing up on inventory because they bin more motors than they get orders for.

Tesla could probably increase the acceleration of the AWD to P levels since the motors don't draw full current during acceleration. CAN data also shows the front motor is severely limited compared to the P, and the front motor is the same for both.

 

[STSUKX]

The 980 is probably more expensive because of the binning process so they can guarantee sustained higher current over longer period. Before when production wasn't that high they probably binned all the motors, but now only some go through the process and gets stamped a different PN. Probably why all the P3D- showing up on inventory because they bin more motors than they get orders for.

Tesla could probably increase the acceleration of the AWD to P levels since the motors don't draw full current during acceleration. CAN data also shows the front motor is severely limited compared to the P, and the front motor is the same for both.

25 kW on the rear one and more than 60 kW on the front...

So that’s ok for the rear part. Don’t unleashed anything on the 990, but bring the full power on the front one, both are the same ! An AWD with 3.4 0-60 will be fine.

 

[dennistdk]

The pointed out the only reason the 990 would exist at all, based on known facts would be if it were cheaper OR better (or both)
If it were better it'd be in the P, not the AWD only. That it isn't in the P is a known fact. So that's out.
If it were cheaper, and equal, it'd be in BOTH versions. That it isn't in both is a known fact. So that's out.
The only choice left is cheaper, and not equal. In which case it'd go in the AWD but not the P. That it IS in the AWD is a known fact.

Well... there is a difference between facts and speculation (I wouldn't call it "logic"). By your "logic" the SR(+) should also have a 990 as it's lower power output on the rear motor than the Performance (and here they would want to save money - so let's not conclude anything without clear "facts").

Nobody will know what the difference is before somebody takes them apart and compares - or some specs leak from Tesla.

The current (2019.36+) AWD's are already delivering roughly the same kW as the Performance did originally (pre-2019.8) on the rear motor - and STSUKX have shown us that the limit is almost only on the front motor. Those are facts.

The specifications for the EU models also shows that the current AWD's (rated at 361kW) are now able to output more than the original Performance models (rated at 360kW - early 2019).

 

[M109Rider]

Didn’t read past your first sentence.

You have a theory.

Prove to me with facts or evidence the 990 is cheaper or less capable than the 980.

That it exists is not factual evidence of its price or capabilities. To suggest otherwise, despite hundreds of words explaining your logic (which by the way I fully comprehend and is reasonable), is incorrect.

lol. Can you not even try to see with an open mind ?

What do you call it when someone refuses to ACKNOWLEDGE logic and reason within a reasonable position stated. In this case even refusing to READ it.
.....
I think it’s called blind conscious obstinance.

Obstinance infused in a rational discussion is like trying to reason with a drunk teenager.

 

[Urbancowboy]

lol. Can you not even try to see with an open mind ?

What do you call it when someone refuses to ACKNOWLEDGE logic and reason within a reasonable position stated. In this case even refusing to READ it.
.....
I think it’s called blind conscious obstinance.

Obstinance infused in a rational discussion is like trying to reason with a drunk teenager.

Yep I’m definitely the irrational one here. Thanks for adding value to the discussion.

 

[M109Rider]

Yep I’m definitely the irrational one here. Thanks for adding value to the discussion.

You haven’t added any value in the form of anything objective to the conversation so far, and your asking others to now add value. Lol.

Like I said; “obstinance.”

 

[Dionysius]

From my perspective, I’d say that 980 refers to a binned motor and the 990 is non binned. Seems to make sense.

 

[Urbancowboy]

You haven’t added any value in the form of anything objective to the conversation so far, and your asking others to now add value. Lol.

Like I said; “obstinance.”

Gosh you’re right. Your thoughtful, constructive comments have led me to completely reassess my perceptions around the differences between theories and facts. It has been enlightening and I am so grateful you cared enough to open my mind. Good job!

 

[jebinc]

"Running gun battles," like what we seem to have in this thread the last two pages, aligns well www.forums.telsa.com forum norms - especially in the Model 3 forum...

I'm hopeful we will see something by the holidays that will put this 64 page long speculation to rest, one way or the other. In the mean time, try to enjoy what we have today and what we each purchased!

 

[thor_2019]

From my perspective, I’d say that 980 refers to a binned motor and the 990 is non binned. Seems to make sense.

Exactly, 990s either failed the bin spec for 980. Or were never binned at all. Makes the most sense in 64 pages

 

[m3-ricardo]

How do you see the p3d- inventory countrywide? Is there a website, or does your SA show you on their internal system?

i went to the showroom and the SA went through eaach region and showed me the cars they had.

 

[Knightshade]

Exactly, 990s either failed the bin spec for 980. Or were never binned at all. Makes the most sense in 64 pages

Given all versions of Model 3s got the 980 motor for the first roughly 17-20 months of production- and that everything except the AWD non-P is still getting the 980, that would only "make sense" if Tesla didn't actually bin motors for all that time, but suddenly, for some reason, decided to start doing so after a long time of not bothering, but then "only" putting the failed ones on AWDs specifically.

Which seems like a lot of not very sensical hoops to jump through

 

[RangerMac]

I know someone who took delivery of a P3D stealth on Saturday. Ordered it a week or two before that.... so they are still very much allowed to be ordered.

Where was the delivery? Did they order it from the dealer.

 

[RangerMac]

i went to the showroom and the SA went through eaach region and showed me the cars they had.

We’re they able to ship from another region to you?


I was told by my SA they wouldn’t and I am trying to see if the other region would ship it to me like other inventory. No luck yet.