Ford Focus Electric "vs" Tesla Model S: What I Learned at the Ford Dealership

[DuncanWatson]

I will say this. I own a Ford Focus EV and it is the best car I have ever had. It has faults but all of my cars have. And since I live on the Eastside of Seattle my commute needs are well below the 80 miles/charge I get. A lot of Tesla drivers feel the need to justify their purchase and talk about how they couldn't work with the lower range of a compliance+ EV like most are. Then they generalize this with various unscientific handwavings. Regardless of this issue, TMC remains the best EV forum nowadays.

 

[gglockner]

+1. Even with the Nissan Leaf in our house. Gas car sits for months, even a year, at a time.

We have the same situation with a Camry Hybrid and a Model S. Unfortunately, we had an unpleasant surprise when the Camry Hybrid would not start due to a discharged 12V battery. I now charge the Camry Hybrid 12V battery via a Battery Tender.

A short-range EV (Leaf, Focus, etc.) works great for short-range driving in cities and suburbs, but they are impractical for people who routinely have longer drives. Thus, I'm not surprised that the OP reported that the Ford dealer in Nebraska rarely sells the Focus EV. Even in California, I would expect virtually no EV sales in the Central Valley.

 

[FlasherZ]

I will say this. I own a Ford Focus EV and it is the best car I have ever had. It has faults but all of my cars have. And since I live on the Eastside of Seattle my commute needs are well below the 80 miles/charge I get. A lot of Tesla drivers feel the need to justify their purchase and talk about how they couldn't work with the lower range of a compliance+ EV like most are. Then they generalize this with various unscientific handwavings. Regardless of this issue, TMC remains the best EV forum nowadays.

You do realize some of them are indeed telling the truth, yes? Especially those who live in more rural areas?

For my family, aside from emergency convenience store runs and local activity runs, everything is roughly 50-60 miles round-trip minimum, directly there and back (no errands rounds, for example). In the winter here, none of the BEV's but Tesla would work for my family. In the summer, I'd have to be careful with routing even my local errand runs. It also really disqualifies a good chunk of most PHEV's that only have 20-30 miles range; I may as well just shoot for a turbo diesel or something if I'm going to put an ICE in it.

While I like the Ford Focus EV, it - like all the others - is a city car. It absolutely will not work for me as a daily driver - and that's not generalized unscientific hand-waving.

All the dealerships that have J1772 chargers here report that they're used maybe once a year by anyone other than the occasional demo car on the lot. The local Chevy dealership sees my car plugged in (there's a bar across the street) more than any other Chevy cars.

 

[techmaven]

I think there's little debate that Tesla took the best approach to EVs, but Renault-Nissan certainly seemed to have a legitimate interest in leading the way in this market, and by some standards it has. It would be good if Nissan learned a bit from Tesla (I imagine it has), and surprises us with some great and varied EV offerings soon (we'll see...). But I also think it would be good if Tesla spokespeople (including the totally awesome Elon Musk, who I think nails it on 99% of matters) and supporters didn't play into counterproductive and I would say factually incorrect blanket statements about "what works," "what a real car is," "what a practical car is," etc. These are rather subjective matters.

My problem with the Renault-Nissan approach is that they have crippled the EV charging infrastructure in the U.S. It is due to the Leaf that we have such anemic L2 charging and we are wasting millions of dollars installing 50 kW DC chargers. They have helped cause the squandering of millions of taxpayer money installing unusably slow L2 charging in all the wrong places. And in a few years, we'll see the folly of installing all these slow L3 chargers at $25k to 75k each. There is no battle between L3 chargers so far... only one standard is over 100kW and that's Tesla's. In 2018 or 2020, when 200 mile BEVs with 50-70 kWh batteries are available from a number of vendors, does charging at 24 or 30A make any sense at all? You can barely charge a 60kW battery pack to full in 8-9 hours at 30A. A 70kW battery won't finish in 8 hours at 30A. 10kW L2 charging is the minimum standard, with 80A 19kW L2 charging being the real goal. In 2020, 80-100kWh battery packs will not be rare... they need 60-80A L2 charging and lots of it. As for L3, does 50 kW 125A charger make any sense? Especially since it is likely charging at 45 kW? And the so called 100kW CHAdeMO's are actually 80A, due to the 200A limitation? They are wasting our money.

So while it's nice to have lots of choices and its terrific that short range BEVs are an option, the downside is that way too much money is being spent to cater to the short term needs of these vehicles. The Leaf v2 will have a 48 kWh battery. The Bolt will likely have the same. 20/25/45kW DC charging does not make sense, and yet they are getting taxpayer money to install this crap.

 

[DuncanWatson]

You do realize some of them are indeed telling the truth, yes? Especially those who live in more rural areas?

For my family, aside from emergency convenience store runs and local activity runs, everything is roughly 50-60 miles round-trip minimum, directly there and back (no errands rounds, for example). In the winter here, none of the BEV's but Tesla would work for my family. In the summer, I'd have to be careful with routing even my local errand runs. It also really disqualifies a good chunk of most PHEV's that only have 20-30 miles range; I may as well just shoot for a turbo diesel or something if I'm going to put an ICE in it.

While I like the Ford Focus EV, it - like all the others - is a city car. It absolutely will not work for me as a daily driver - and that's not generalized unscientific hand-waving.

All the dealerships that have J1772 chargers here report that they're used maybe once a year by anyone other than the occasional demo car on the lot. The local Chevy dealership sees my car plugged in (there's a bar across the street) more than any other Chevy cars.

I refer you to a population heat map of the USA - http://i.imgur.com/Z7qVRxd.gif
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't imply that the Ford Focus EV is a city car. I have lived and worked in 6 locations in my working career and in only 2 of those locations would I have been unable to drive to work and in both of those cases I didn't drive to work in any case. For a daily driver my Ford Focus EV would have worked for me in suburban NY -> NYC (LIRR), suburban NJ ->NYC (driving), Munich -> Germering, suburban Portland(OR) ->Portland, and Eastside Seattle->Eastside Seattle.

Sure that is anecdotal but so is your claim. And I see 2-5 Teslas a day on the Eastside. The truth is that a 70mile EV will work for a large percentage of the US. And those who chose to live in exurbs for the big house get to live with the consequences of those decisions.

 

[Firewired]

I am coming to my P85D with having a Focus EVA as my primary driver for 2 years and having to have a backup ICE. Ford has really periodically run some impressive incentives to move the Focus, at time (not sure about now) as little as $149 a month for 24 or 36 months. There is a lot redeeming about the car, and I wish that Ford would not sell it, like a compliance car, and put more effort into developing like it could be. I live in pretty temperate winter Texas, and even here I found the drop in temp during the winter would severely diminish my range and make anything more than a 50 mile round trip undo able. I always had to think ahead which car to take if I had to drive further from work to get the kids, do to the constant range issue, or if I needed to carry anything bulky in the car. I am now gratefully down to one car and never having to think about it. It is amazing, as someone posted previously, that my starting max range in my Focus EV that I used to leave the house with, that is around the same range in the MS that I am starting to think about charging.

It you can find one the low price deals on the Focus EV it is a great around town runner.

 

[Beryl]

I will say this. I own a Ford Focus EV and it is the best car I have ever had. It has faults but all of my cars have. And since I live on the Eastside of Seattle my commute needs are well below the 80 miles/charge I get.

The Focus EV or a hybrid would definitely be contenders for a second car for me. Although 80 miles would be more than enough for day to day use, I need more for my monthly 100 mile day trips. Also, since I will only have one car, I'd hate to respond to an evacuation (south Texas) with any EV with a range under 200 miles!
Most of those on TMC who seem to be putting down cars with short range specs likely have similar requirements.
(Personally, I'm happy to read about the success of other EVs. More EVs more chargers -- win-win.)

 

[FlasherZ]

I refer you to a population heat map of the USA - http://i.imgur.com/Z7qVRxd.gif
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't imply that the Ford Focus EV is a city car. I have lived and worked in 6 locations in my working career and in only 2 of those locations would I have been unable to drive to work and in both of those cases I didn't drive to work in any case. For a daily driver my Ford Focus EV would have worked for me in suburban NY -> NYC (LIRR), suburban NJ ->NYC (driving), Munich -> Germering, suburban Portland(OR) ->Portland, and Eastside Seattle->Eastside Seattle.

Sure that is anecdotal but so is your claim. And I see 2-5 Teslas a day on the Eastside. The truth is that a 70mile EV will work for a large percentage of the US. And those who chose to live in exurbs for the big house get to live with the consequences of those decisions.

I'm not arguing that a good chunk of the population can not go with them. You complained about people generalizing, yet you were doing it yourself when you declared that the Tesla owners concerned with range were all handwaving.

I don't live here for the big house; I live here because of the community and it's where my family is located. I live only 45 miles from downtown St. Louis. There are plenty of people (including much of the heartland) where this is the case.

Now, I'm not against certain uses - I didn't say it wouldn't work for anyone; after all, in 2 years I'll be looking for a lower-range EV for my eldest son. But it's going to limit him (and that's by design ).

 

[DuncanWatson]

80.7% of the US population lives in urban areas and can most likely use a 70 mile EV as a daily driver. I did conflate the set of Tesla drivers who claim they couldn't use a 70 mile EV with those the set of Tesla Drivers on TMC to claim that such EVs are useless. But there is significant overlap and I suspect I can be forgiven for it. OTOH the claim that EVs as they are today are not usable as daily drivers for many if not most people in the US is fallacious. Whether it is a good investment to buy such an EV is a different topic. I will point out that I leased my Ford Focus EV since I think the technology and state of the art will advance much faster than the underwriters of my lease do.

 

[JohnQ]

I refer you to a population heat map of the USA - http://i.imgur.com/Z7qVRxd.gif
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't imply that the Ford Focus EV is a city car. I have lived and worked in 6 locations in my working career and in only 2 of those locations would I have been unable to drive to work and in both of those cases I didn't drive to work in any case. For a daily driver my Ford Focus EV would have worked for me in suburban NY -> NYC (LIRR), suburban NJ ->NYC (driving), Munich -> Germering, suburban Portland(OR) ->Portland, and Eastside Seattle->Eastside Seattle.

Sure that is anecdotal but so is your claim. And I see 2-5 Teslas a day on the Eastside. The truth is that a 70mile EV will work for a large percentage of the US. And those who chose to live in exurbs for the big house get to live with the consequences of those decisions.

But it's not about driving to work. It's driving 120 miles round trip to the ski mountain in the dead of winter 20+ times per year. It's monthly trips to "grandma's" which is 100 miles each way. It's quarterly road trips that are greater than 300 miles each way. This is not an unusual pattern of behavior for folks. And it's why there's room for 80 mile range EVs and 250 mile range EVs.

 

[DuncanWatson]

But it's not about driving to work. It's driving 120 miles round trip to the ski mountain in the dead of winter 20+ times per year. It's monthly trips to "grandma's" which is 100 miles each way. It's quarterly road trips that are greater than 300 miles each way. This is not an unusual pattern of behavior for folks. And it's why there's room for 80 mile range EVs and 250 mile range EVs.

Of course there is room. I want to use my EV for more than my daily driver too. That is why I am leasing it and I have a second car. But "grandma's" is 3000 miles away and there is this thing called a ski-bus. The fact that a 80 mile EV is perfectly usable as a daily driver doesn't preclude the desirability of the 200 mile EV. And the next step is the 200 mile EV. You will fill up an ICE during a 200 mile round trip in most cases since ICE vehicles aren't sitting on a full tank in your garage every day. I want a Model 3 and so does the market. I think that is a pretty common viewpoint on TMC. But ZachShahan is right in that you see a lot of 80 mile EV panning on TMC.

 

[MSEV]

But it's not about driving to work. It's driving 120 miles round trip to the ski mountain in the dead of winter 20+ times per year. It's monthly trips to "grandma's" which is 100 miles each way. It's quarterly road trips that are greater than 300 miles each way. This is not an unusual pattern of behavior for folks. And it's why there's room for 80 mile range EVs and 250 mile range EVs.

Let me restate a bit of what I said or meant to say in the original post:
I liked the ICE Ford Focus I drove.
I wanted to get the dealer to give me a deal I couldn't refuse ($149/month 2 year would do it for sure) on a FF EV, so we would have two EVs.
And even though I can't go to the next town over in the FF EV I would have 2 EVs and pretty much be ICE free.
I like both cars.
For me, the FF EV is not practical enough to get me to buy/lease because I need to go further now and then and/or it has to be really cheap for me to forgo that longer trip issue.

 

[eloder]

But it's not about driving to work. It's driving 120 miles round trip to the ski mountain in the dead of winter 20+ times per year. It's monthly trips to "grandma's" which is 100 miles each way. It's quarterly road trips that are greater than 300 miles each way. This is not an unusual pattern of behavior for folks. And it's why there's room for 80 mile range EVs and 250 mile range EVs.

Most American households also have more than one car available. Nobody is saying that two cars should be replaced with Leafs or smart EVs, but I guarantee most families could support at least one EV very easily and it would save them a ton of money.

My parents for example have four cars. Not a single person in the family drives more than 40-50 miles daily, and even when longer trips are needed, you aren't seeing multiple long trips needed by different family members simultaneously. Every example you have involves people taking trips with multiple members of the family--hence, they wouldn't need to take the commuter car that saves them $200 a month in gas, but they would take the other car (ICE, hybrid, or Tesla-like EV).

 

[Rockster]

It's funny you say that. In our house, whoever has the longer ride any given day gets to take the Tesla. When I tell people, they always assume it's the other way around.

That's exactly how it is in our house. My wife and I have gone so far at times as to compare our following day's travels using Google as each of us tries to make the case for having the Tesla. (All in good fun, of course.)

 

[InternetDude]

That's exactly how it is in our house. My wife and I have gone so far at times as to compare our following day's travels using Google as each of us tries to make the case for having the Tesla. (All in good fun, of course.)

In our house the person that is going the furthest takes the Prius. The other one gets the gas guzzler.

 

[ZachShahan]

Yes, just to be absolutely clear what my issue is: I understand that some people drive a great deal and, thus, more or less need the Model S/X if they are going to drive electric, but that is definitely not the norm. So, my issue is when people make across-the-board statements about non-Tesla EVs being impractical or not a good option for most drivers. Sure, there are of course cases where a LEAF doesn't work for a household, but that's most likely the exception rather than the norm.

I appreciate DuncanWatson and eloder further explaining my point here, including the fact that most households have multiple cars and only need one for long-distance trips.

Yes, I agree that dealerships are a main culprit in stopping the EV transition. I also appreciate the good commentary that it was a mistake to put so much government (and corporate) money into L2 charging. I can certainly think of ways I think that money could have been used much more effectively.

As I think everyone knows, this forum is amazing. Tesla fans are by and large amazing. Tesla is clearly amazing. But I think everyone needs to go beyond misguided broad statements about the practicality of non-Tesla EVs. Anecdotes, sure, they're fine, but they should not be used for generalizing.

Lastly, to bring in some anecdotes of my own: I've been living car-free for ~11 years. First in Chapel Hill/Carrboro, NC (10-15-min bike ride just about everywhere), then in Silicon Valley (only for a few months, to be fair, but bike+Caltrain was excellent for my needs), then in the Netherlands (Groningen -- bike capital of the world in some respects, nuff said), then in Charlottesville, Virginia (10-min walk to my office and the downtown pedestrian mall), and now Wroclaw, Poland (walking works excellently for just about everything, but then there are also good biking & tram/streetcar options). I've used carsharing programs and rental cars a bit, but I've honestly had such little need for a car that it has made much more sense to live without one. I'm not generalizing and saying everyone can live in such a way, but I'm emphasizing that an 80-mile LEAF would even be far beyond my needs. We're planning a move to Florida (my home state) later this year. With a baby, I'm thinking about which EV to get. I could easily afford a Model S, but I could also find some other use for $20,000-$40,000 and get a BMW i3 or LEAF instead, and our driving needs would be so limited that it's just really hard to justify a long-range EV I don't need. I'm honestly on the line, but "needing" the extra range is certainly not a factor. If I got a Model S, it would be for the extra safety and simply because the car is so awesome. Again, this is just my situation, and I'm sure it's atypical, but the situations of many Model S owners sharing their anecdotes are probably also very atypical, and I think the data (which I'll bring into my coming article... publishing today, I think) show that 200 miles of range is not a practical need for the vast majority of people... it's a "manufactured need" that I think anyone interested in advancing the EV revolution needs to stop hyping.

 

[FlasherZ]

As I think everyone knows, this forum is amazing. Tesla fans are by and large amazing. Tesla is clearly amazing. But I think everyone needs to go beyond misguided broad statements about the practicality of non-Tesla EVs. Anecdotes, sure, they're fine, but they should not be used for generalizing.

When you say that, from your text I will assume that you're referring to people who have suggested that there is a good segment of the population who could not rely upon a non-Tesla EV as a primary vehicle for local use (let's just eliminate the 100 mile+ weekend road-trip).

So I'll just simply say your very same quote, in the context of people who have never lived at the outer edge of a metropolitan area/in a rural area/where there is a season called "winter" or people who have a 60+ mile round-trip commute or people who have unpredictable driving patterns or people who have a need for more storage/cargo space in their car or ... or ... or ...:

I think everyone needs to go beyond misguided broad statements about the practicality of non-Tesla EVs.

When people say it's "most likely the exception rather than the norm", I invite them to tour the US a bit more.

 

[ZachShahan]

When you say that, from your text I will assume that you're referring to people who have suggested that there is a good segment of the population who could not rely upon a non-Tesla EV as a primary vehicle for local use (let's just eliminate the 100 mile+ weekend road-trip).

So I'll just simply say your very same quote, in the context of people who have never lived at the outer edge of a metropolitan area/in a rural area/where there is a season called "winter" or people who have a 60+ mile round-trip commute or people who have unpredictable driving patterns or people who have a need for more storage/cargo space in their car or ... or ... or ...:

I think everyone needs to go beyond misguided broad statements about the practicality of non-Tesla EVs.

When people say it's "most likely the exception rather than the norm", I invite them to tour the US a bit more.

I've lived in 5 states (am American) and seen much of the country. And like I said, my living choices weren't the norm, but I'm still convinced the average person could very easily and happily live with a LEAF-type vehicle without it being a "sacrifice," but it actually being the best choice they could make. My article going into the data a bit is up if you care to think more about it: One Thing I Think Elon Musk Is Wrong On | CleanTechnica

 

[Beryl]

I've lived in 5 states (am American) and seen much of the country. And like I said, my living choices weren't the norm, but I'm still convinced the average person could very easily and happily live with a LEAF-type vehicle without it being a "sacrifice," but it actually being the best choice they could make. My article going into the data a bit is up if you care to think more about it: One Thing I Think Elon Musk Is Wrong On | CleanTechnica

Perhaps the word "sacrifice" is being interpreted differently. We all make sacrifices everyday without becoming unhappy. The average person can sacrifice car ownership in lieu of public transportation and live happy lives.

Elon is correct to build cars with a 200+ mile range. Given the many SCs now and in the coming years, he should make cars that can easily access them.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Of course there is room. I want to use my EV for more than my daily driver too. That is why I am leasing it and I have a second car. But "grandma's" is 3000 miles away and there is this thing called a ski-bus. The fact that a 80 mile EV is perfectly usable as a daily driver doesn't preclude the desirability of the 200 mile EV. And the next step is the 200 mile EV. You will fill up an ICE during a 200 mile round trip in most cases since ICE vehicles aren't sitting on a full tank in your garage every day. I want a Model 3 and so does the market. I think that is a pretty common viewpoint on TMC. But ZachShahan is right in that you see a lot of 80 mile EV panning on TMC.

The panning is similar on gm-volt and it's partly self-selection. But to me the issue is a simple one of economics: the average commute is short, so if a car can't handle weekend driving, not only does it eliminate a lot of 1 car households, the high up-front cost makes it poor value for a lot of multi-car households. By the time it becomes good value, the incremental cost of more range will have decreased significantly, to the point where people can put more money into the BEV for more range, and then have a cheap gasser for utility.