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Ford will add NACS to next gen EVs!

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Next gen Ford EVs will include NACS port. Also will have a NACS to CCS adapter for existing Ford EVs and will be made compatible with Tesla Superchargers via software update.

Honestly never thought any other automaker would take up NACS so this is very surprising.


Moderator note: The first couple pages of this thread are a merge of two different threads on the same topic.
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Good news to establish a standard and allow access to the Tesla network. This takes away one of the big reasons to stay with Tesla and allowing myself at least to consider competitor. I really want to see some more luxury at the MYLR price point.
They are only getting access to about half of the network, and we don't know what Tesla is going to charge them...
 
To everyone is worried over Mustangs flooding your favorite supercharger location, stop and look at the numbers people.
The Mustang Mach E does not even make the top 5 and the Lightning barely makes the top 10 in sales. o_O

Think about that for a minute. Tesla Austin by itself is building 5,000 Model Y's a week. Ford made 5,407 Mustang EV's in the entire Q1.

The full chart can be found here.
US Electric Vehicle Sales Up 66%, Rise To 7% Of US Auto Sales - CleanTechnica

View attachment 942103
To be fair, Ford EV sales up to now had been cars that couldn't use v3 Superchargers.
 
Access to SpCs doesn't stop Fords from charging slower than modern Teslas, having worse efficiency, worse navigation, worse autopilot, dealers that actively fighting against selling them and offering you oil changes 'at a discount'.
Exactly, re the dealerships. I recall the experience of buying a hybrid from Ford some years ago. That was 2016 - and we were buying a C-Max- which actually was an OK car for us at the time, but which the dealership had no interest in selling. There was a grand total of one C-Max on the vast Ford sales lot, otherwise full with ICE pickups and SUVs. The sales staff knew nothing about the vehicle and made no effort at all to encourage us to buy it, and by the time we actually completed the purchase I would describe the sales manager’s attitude to us as being actively hostile. Presumably, from his perspective, he had ‘lost’ a higher-margin sale.

Happy to have a Tesla now; my daughter is driving the C-Max.
 
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Exactly, re the dealerships. I recall the experience of buying a hybrid from Ford some years ago. That was 2016 - and we were buying a C-Max- which actually was an OK car for us at the time, but which the dealership had no interest in selling. There was a grand total of one C-Max on the vast Ford sales lot, otherwise full with ICE pickups and SUVs. The sales staff knew nothing about the vehicle and made no effort at all to encourage us to buy it, and by the time we actually completed the purchase I would describe the sales manager’s attitude to us as being actively hostile. Presumably, from his perspective, he had ‘lost’ a higher-margin sale.

Happy to have a Tesla now; my daughter is driving the C-Max.
This is, by no means, a new Ford attitude. Sometime before hybrids became available, I was looking for a small commuter car for my daily banger. Civics, Corollas, and.. possibly a Ford Fiesta. At the time (early 2000's) it had a, "It's fun to drive!" rating from Consumers Reports, so the S.O. and I took a ride to the nearest Ford dealership.

Muscle cars, trucks, SUVs.. The (very) few Fiestas about were a quarter mile away, across a busy highway, and the staff was absolutely uninterested in showing any of them to us. They had a sold one, waiting for the buyer to come and pick it up, next to the building. We were told that we could peer through the windows. That was it.

Left and got a 2002 Civic. Which was eventually sold to my son when he needed a car, ended up with him on the West Coast, and was eventually sold to a friend after the son bought an early 2018 M3. And was still running strong when the friend sold it a couple of years ago.
 
To everyone is worried over Mustangs flooding your favorite supercharger location, stop and look at the numbers people.
The Mustang Mach E does not even make the top 5 and the Lightning barely makes the top 10 in sales. o_O

Think about that for a minute. Tesla Austin by itself is building 5,000 Model Y's a week. Ford made 5,407 Mustang EV's in the entire Q1.

The full chart can be found here.
US Electric Vehicle Sales Up 66%, Rise To 7% Of US Auto Sales - CleanTechnica

View attachment 942103
Thank you so much for that chart - found it really fascinating.

Here is the on-topic comment: people are saying above that only some % of chargers will be shared. Didn't Tesla say earlier that it would open its chargers to all EVs, but that didn't include the very fastest? Was that in fact true and will that be true in the future? (One would suppose Fords would get good treatment if they are paying.)

Comment on that chart that fascinated me, but not necessarily on topic:

So, the only EV sold in the us that comes anywhere close the popularity of Tesla... is being discontinued - the Bolt. I find that incredibly sad, since it's the only EV in the US under $40k that I know about. It could have been the car for the masses, really helping to de-carbonize, especially if Chevy gave it a little time to live down it's fiery beginnings.

Interesting that the Ioniq 5, which is just weird, but has the great fast-charging platform, is doing as well as the Mach-E, which seems to have a lot of appeal. (I have a friend with a Mach-E, he loves it. Youtubers keep saying it's as good as a Y, but it seems to charge way too slow for my taste, 10-80% 45 min vs. 26 min for a model Y LR according to Google. )

I recently saw an ioniq 6 in a breathtakingly gorgeous deep blue. If I had to bet, I would be on that one to come out second to Teslas after the initial humongous backorder of F-150s runs out. Of course, if it can't charge at SCs, then that is a big disadvantage.

And in 2023 people are still buying the ID4? Are the software horror stories exaggerated or ... what am I missing here?

Thanks, happy holiday, peace, love, and long battery life to all.

-TPC


Humble, lowly no-options 2023 white MYLR. Works well on road trips, and surprisingly, we like it. | Classic 1998 Civic, soon to go to relative.
 
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The Ioniq 5 is a different look, but many people (including me) love it! Just too big a car for me, but I am not surprised it sells really well. I would go further and would say it is the only CUV I think is cool. I would take it over a Mach E any day, if I was in the market for a CUV. Also, faster charging than any Tesla (10-80% in 18 minutes (!) at an 800V charger). I agree Ioniq 6 is very cool as well, and much more of a size I would be interested in. Just not a fan of the face so far, but have not seen one in person yet.
 
I have several thoughts on this topic which I haven't yet seen addressed, or at best only in passing....

First, one of the sources I read or viewed (I think an interview with the Ford CEO) claimed that Ford and Tesla have been in discussions about this for about two years. This means that discussions were occurring before Tesla opened (and named as such) the NACS specs. Most of the discussions I've seen that assume causality say that Tesla opening NACS created the opportunity for this deal to occur; but if the discussions began ~2 years ago, it seems more likely that it was the other way around -- that Ford refused the widely-reported "poison pill" of Ford's using patents on Tesla's proprietary connector resulting in Ford being unable to sue Tesla over patent infringement for Ford's own patents. To make a deal, Ford might have required better terms on this, and Tesla more fully opening NACS was the result. That said, a private deal would have worked fine from this point of view, so I don't think this was Tesla's sole motivating factor; but it could have been one of the reasons that Tesla opened NACS when they did, vs., say, five years ago. For instance, if Tesla is in active talks with another automaker or two, then similar issues might have driven Tesla to opening NACS as they did as the simplest and best solution from Tesla, to satisfy the demands of multiple parties.

Another point: Most of the discussion has been on DC fast charging; but if Ford completely removes CCS and J1772 connectors, as some reporting suggests (at least for CCS), then presumably NACS-only Fords will require home EVSEs with NACS connectors, or the use of J1772-to-NACS adapters. Ford will presumably switch to NACS plugs on their home EVSEs, and third-party suppliers might start selling them, too. This isn't a big deal, really, since J1772-to-NACS adapters are cheap enough and work well enough that they can be fine, and Tesla's Wall Connector is a good deal; but if you wanted a non-Tesla EVSE with an NACS plug, Ford's adopting NACS could make them available. Similarly, if this moves beyond Ford, and NACS truly does become the standard, then eventually public L2 infrastructure will begin to favor NACS. I don't expect the latter to happen for years, though.

Similarly, this may speed the adoption of NACS cables at EVgo, EA, ChargePoint, and other DC fast charging providers. With more manufacturers providing cars with NACS plugs, DC fast charging networks may start to ditch CHAdeMO in favor of NACS cables. I'm well aware that EVgo already has NACS plugs, via a modified Tesla CHAdeMO adapter; and some other small providers do something similar. I'm talking about a more "native" NACS cable, even if it "talks" the CCS protocol. This would be a plus for Tesla owners who have CCS support but who haven't shelled out for a CCS-to-NACS adapter.

For those hoping for NACS to truly become a standard, Ford's signing on might help, since they could then throw their weight behind a true standards body (probably SAE, but maybe IEEE or somebody else) adopting NACS as a standard. AFAIK, despite putting "standard" in the name, NACS isn't really a standard in the same sense that something adopted by a standards body is. This could be a good thing for further driving adoption of NACS. OTOH, it could be a double-edged sword -- a standards body might want to make changes that could turn into a nightmare.

When I read the announcement about 2025 Fords using NACS, I assumed that the year referred to the model year, so that Ford EVs would begin shipping with NACS ports in a bit over a year, in late 2024. OTOH, if 2025 refers to a calendar year, then it'll likely be late 2025 before they materialize. Does anybody have any solid references to clarify this point?

Finally, I haven't seen references in this thread to this Munro and Associates YouTube video:


The presenters show various components from both Tesla NACS and Ford CCS implementations and describe various ways that Tesla's is less expensive and otherwise better. Of course, it's not clear that Ford will adopt all of Tesla's cost-saving improvements, but I thought it was an interesting comparison.

people are saying above that only some % of chargers will be shared. Didn't Tesla say earlier that it would open its chargers to all EVs, but that didn't include the very fastest? Was that in fact true and will that be true in the future? (One would suppose Fords would get good treatment if they are paying.)
Tesla has said in the past that they would open a certain number of their Superchargers by adding CCS capabilities (via Magic Docks). I don't recall the exact numbers, but as I understand it, fewer Superchargers will have Magic Docks than will be open to Fords under this new deal. Thus, this deal means that Fords will have access to more Superchargers than they would have via Magic Docks, but I haven't seen any solid reporting on precisely which Superchargers Fords will be able to use. Some have speculated that V2 Superchargers will be out (because they can't use the CCS protocol), or that Tesla will exclude very high-usage Superchargers (like some in the LA area), but that's all speculation. As usual, we'll just have to wait and see.

As to speed, I just checked, and all 11 of the current Superchargers with Magic Docks are listed as 250 kW (V3) stations. Many non-Tesla users report getting lower speeds on them than they can get at other CCS stations, though. There are a range of technical reasons for this, having to do with matching the voltage and amperage requirements of various vehicles, and possibly Tesla playing it safe in the initial test stations. Things may improve in the future, particularly once V4 Superchargers come online; but as usual, we in the general public don't have solid information. This topic is covered in this YouTube video:

 
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When I read the announcement about 2025 Fords using NACS, I assumed that the year referred to the model year, so that Ford EVs would begin shipping with NACS ports in a bit over a year, in late 2024. OTOH, if 2025 refers to a calendar year, then it'll likely be late 2025 before they materialize. Does anybody have any solid references to clarify this point?
They have said that they will start to ship NACS vehicles in 2025, so that likely means model year 2026 vehicles.
 
Tesla has said in the past that they would open a certain number of their Superchargers by adding CCS capabilities (via Magic Docks). I don't recall the exact numbers, but as I understand it, fewer Superchargers will have Magic Docks than will be open to Fords under this new deal. Thus, this deal means that Fords will have access to more Superchargers than they would have via Magic Docks, but I haven't seen any solid reporting on precisely which Superchargers Fords will be able to use. Some have speculated that V2 Superchargers will be out (because they can't use the CCS protocol), or that Tesla will exclude very high-usage Superchargers (like some in the LA area), but that's all speculation. As usual, we'll just have to wait and see.
The Ford announcement specifically says they will get access to V3s, which is about 13k in NA, which matches their "more than 12k" verbage. MagicDocks are being funded by the feds and they committed to 3.5k, also V3, by the end of 2024. The Canadian agreement is for 350 V3s.

So V2s seem to be explicitly excluded, which makes sense. Elon said the Superchargers would not be a limit to Fords. Which need ~160kW. V2 can only do 150kW, and if the paired stall is in use 75kW.
 
people are saying above that only some % of chargers will be shared. Didn't Tesla say earlier that it would open its chargers to all EVs, but that didn't include the very fastest? Was that in fact true and will that be true in the future? (One would suppose Fords would get good treatment if they are paying.)

Here is Ford's announcement about gaining access to 12 thousand superchargers:

Ford EV Customers To Gain Access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers; Company to Add North American Charging Standard Port in Future EVs

Reuters, and many others (including Tesla according to USAToday) say Tesla has over 17 thousand superchargers in the US:

If Ford's access is only in the US then it will be to 70% of the current network. The percentage will shrink as the network grows.

The second article does echo what you said: Tesla is planning to open up their new chargers to everyone in order to partake in federal government subsidies. And yes, Elon has talked about opening up the network to everyone. The differences are mostly due to timing and aspirations.

In the here and now (and near future), the entire supercharger network will not be opened up to Ford. When Tesla opened up superchargers in Europe, they only allowed access to locations that were not currently crowded with Teslas. There has been tremendous amounts of angst and anger whenever Tesla talks about opening up the network, however none of the fears that generated that angst and anxiety have come to fruition. It seems that Tesla is well aware of which side of their bread has butter on it. At least when it comes to supercharger access.
 
Another point: Most of the discussion has been on DC fast charging; but if Ford completely removes CCS and J1772 connectors, as some reporting suggests (at least for CCS), then presumably NACS-only Fords will require home EVSEs with NACS connectors, or the use of J1772-to-NACS adapters.
They already supply one made by Lenz with their F150 to help charge stranded Teslas. It won't be a big deal to include that with any future NACS Ford (if it is true as you say they have been in talks for 2 years, it's possible that adapter was included with the possibility of future Fords needing it).
Tesla charging adapter
 
...that Ford refused the widely-reported "poison pill" of Ford's using patents on Tesla's proprietary connector resulting in Ford being unable to sue Tesla over patent infringement for Ford's own patents...

I've seen this opinion thrown around for years. But it ignores the reality that companies routinely cross-license patents with their competitors all the time. No doubt Tesla has stepped on some of Fords patents years ago, and vice versa.

Similarly, this may speed the adoption of NACS cables at EVgo, EA, ChargePoint, and other DC fast charging providers. With more manufacturers providing cars with NACS plugs, DC fast charging networks may start to ditch CHAdeMO in favor of NACS cables. I'm well aware that EVgo already has NACS plugs, via a modified Tesla CHAdeMO adapter; and some other small providers do something similar. I'm talking about a more "native" NACS cable, even if it "talks" the CCS protocol. This would be a plus for Tesla owners who have CCS support but who haven't shelled out for a CCS-to-NACS adapter.

The NACS spec states that the underlying electrical and digital protocols are CCS. Just that it seems Tesla uses the original CAN-based protocols with their cars that don't have the necessary hardware to talk PLC.
 
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If Ford's access is only in the US then it will be to 70% of the current network. The percentage will shrink as the network grows.

[...]
Presumably that means Canada too. Given that Ford is changing the plug standard on vehicle itself, I can't imagine Ford would be building a separate set of EVs for Canada with CCS plug hardware. Nor would I expect Ford alternatively to build the new EVs with NACS for Canada but then shut out Canadians from using the NACS Tesla charging network in Canada and force them to using an adapter to use third-party CCS chargers. That's just my speculation, but given that the U.S./Canada car market is pretty much integrated, anything else just does not make sense.
 
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Do you have a reference for this? It was my understanding that Tesla had eschewed Federal funding because it came with too many strings attached.
It isn't the NEVI funding, it was a separate agreement, likely with fewer strings attached. At least according to this article: U.S. government will pay Tesla to open its charger network to non-Tesla EVs

Elon Musk, Tesla's chief executive, promised to provide 7,500 open-access chargers in the U.S. by the end of 2024, according to Biden administration officials. Taxpayer dollars will pay for the conversion of existing Tesla chargers or the construction of new ones to accommodate cars built by Ford, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, Volkswagen and other electric car makers.
 
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I've seen this opinion thrown around for years. But it ignores the reality that companies routinely cross-license patents with their competitors all the time. No doubt Tesla has stepped on some of Fords patents years ago, and vice versa.
They are talking about Tesla's patent policy, which most people describe as a poison pill. The policy gives Tesla essentially access to all of Ford's patents as soon as they use even one of them. It doesn't make sense for parties with much larger patent pools than Tesla. NACS eliminates this by making it an open standard not subject to Tesla's patent policy.

While Tesla no doubt likely licenses patents from others, I can certainly believe if Ford never licensed any patent from Tesla.
 
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So, the only EV sold in the us that comes anywhere close the popularity of Tesla... is being discontinued - the Bolt. I find that incredibly sad, since it's the only EV in the US under $40k that I know about. It could have been the car for the masses, really helping to de-carbonize, especially if Chevy gave it a little time to live down it's fiery beginnings.
I had a Bolt and really liked it, I only sold it because I got a GM buyback offer that allowed me to turn a profit after the tax credit was figured in.
It makes sense that GM would discontinue the current Bolt with it's older battery format as they move toward getting everything to run on a common
platform, it's just unfortunate that they haven't yet announced something smaller (and presumably cheaper) than the Equinox EV. I suspect it will be several years until they make something like that available.