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This was a dangers oversight. Brandon didn't even notice the car's failure to stop for the pedestrian stepping onto the street and even had the Walk light. Just one second later and he would have likely hit the pedestrian since he would have made another step into the street. He should have hit the brakes hard and stoped. As an in city runner this type of driver behavior infuriates me.
[runner's rant]Just because you are in a 2 ton metal can doesn't mean your rights are superior to someone walking or biking.
Also FSD fails to quickly identify the pedestrian.
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I hear you on the runner's rant. I know it VERY well. I make eye contact at intersections and even then I've had many, many close calls!
Some of them have been my fault and some the drivers fault and some are just nearly impossible to avoid.
Technically that pedestrian was jay-walking, as he was not in the cross-walk...
From the bottom image you can see that the UI lags reality. The pedestrian is in view of the gopro, but the UI car has not reached the parked car in the lot to the right. At that location the ped. is totally hidden by the bush and traffic control box. In the top image the car in the UI is just at the beginning of the turn which is about where the ped. becomes visible, and the UI has him painted.
We don't know how far behind the UI lags the fsd control algorithm, so we can't know how far behind reality fsd is.
By the way, humans take 0.1 to 0.3 seconds to process visual information depending on the complexity of the scene. The detection of some motions can take up to a second. Therefor we lag behind reality, too. We live in the past.
powertoold
Active Member
mikes_fsd
Banned
The context is, you said that "Without the radar, I think FSD beta still has issues identifying oncoming cars"
The radar on Tesla's are forward facing, and see 160 m out, so wouldn't that specifically cover the "oncoming cars" scenario?
powertoold
Active Member
I'm assuming "oncoming" means any car headed towards your direction, even if it's from your periphery. The radar can only detect cars coming from the direct front. If you look at the visualizations, any car that isn't in the radar field has less positional confidence, and sometimes isn't detected at all, especially if partially occluded or across an island.
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
I've never been hit by a car while running at an intersection where the driver looks left but doesn't look right. But I've hit a few cars while running in that same scenario. Even dented a few. Oops!
Chazman92
Member
FSDBeta 7 2020.48.10.1
Turns, School Bus, and Lane Changes. Check it out.
Turns, School Bus, and Lane Changes. Check it out.
Hahaha! The worst mistake I ever made (and only once...) was running behind a car that pulled up to an intersection so that I wouldn't hold them up from pulling out. Well... that nice gesture is a horrible idea because others turning onto that road can no longer see you!I've never been hit by a car while running at an intersection where the driver looks left but doesn't look right. But I've hit a few cars while running in that same scenario. Even dented a few. Oops!
I did the ol' swim across the front of the hood on that day and managed to come out gracefully uninjured. The driver was (understandably) pissed!
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
I am certainly not a doomsday gloomer and am 100% PRO-TESLA-FSD moving at full speed....however...... try telling that "Technically that pedestrian was jay-walking" to his significant other, children, parents, judge & jury...I am sure they would see side with you. NOT!! smh smh smh
scottf200
Well-Known Member
I slowed the YT vid down to x0.25 hoping that the Tesla cameras saw the pedestrian but nope. It seemed easy to see to me
https : //youtu . be/5XW2eUJHlAY?t=593
In a few states if you are hit while jay-walking you are precluded from collecting any compensation from the other party because you were breaking the law. (Contributory negligence) In most states your compensation would be limited based on how much at fault you were found. And in some of those states if your fault is over 50% you again can collect nothing.
This case seems like it would be very likely for the pedestrian to be found significantly at fault as they stepped in to the road, not in a crosswalk, from behind obstructions that prevented drivers from being able to see them in advance.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
That's fine but a system that just goes around running over jaywalkers and anyone else who is not obeying the law would dramatically increase the number of collisions. In my mind that would be completely contrary to the goal of FSD (though I suppose someone could argue that the convenience would be worth the extra carnage).
I'm not going to ding FSD for this though. That was a horrible place to attempt to cross the street. Hopefully if the pedestrian had been in the street FSD would have been able to stop or swerve to avoid them. That electrical box is also really bad, that intersection seems like a death trap. I wonder if a pedestrian were to go out of view behind the electrical box if FSD would have known that they were behind it and possibly about to cross the street.
scottf200
Well-Known Member
What about that bush in the picture above. It is wider than the electrical box. See above picture a few post.
Is the question is if FSD better than a human driver (larger statistics-wise). I don't think a human driver would have handled that system any differently 99+ out of 100. In fact, I think in these types of cases that the cameras and FSD systems would be able to see (once around the corner) the pedestrian and to physically apply the brake quicker than a human (reacting and lifting foot then moving to the brake pedal vs computer speed).
From the pedestrian's point of view, if you can't see traffic because of the box they can't see you. Take caution while crossing. Looks like he did pull up, possibly for that reason, and that he knew he was cutting the corner.
From FSD's point of view, the clip didn't run continuously so it's a bit hard to tell, but it didn't seem to take a hard evasion nor hard brake. Did it anticipate a problem due to the obstructed view - possibly. It may have hit the pedestrian if he'd continued.
From the driver's point of view. Hands not in control of the wheel - though hovering. Unknown whether he was covering the brake or accelerator. Made no actual intervention. Could equally have anticipated the obstructed view.
My verdict would be human driver caused accident through inattention and overreliance on driver assist features. That would probably be Elon's opinion too. Pedestrian can take whatever portion of blame too.
That interaction with the 'school bus stop sign' starting at about 0:45 was impressive. The Tesla was clearly going to attempt a pass but reacted immediately and stopped when the school bus deployed the stop sign. Good find Chuck.
While technically true, it still doesnt let the car off the hook, and that is one of the reasons this is still a very limited beta. Remember the Uber case? The person who was killed was jaywalking with a bike, but that still caused a catastrophe for Uber.
This is a quote form a Tesla media day:
With no other changes to the hardware past the v3 ASIC, Autopilot can capture and process in excess of 2,000 frames per second, an increase of ten-fold.
That frame rate should give fsd a 0.5 ms detection time vs at best 100 ms for a human. It takes a human another 100 to 200 ms to actually take action once it has detected something.
Even if the cameras are capturing at, let's say 120 hz, that's still 8ms vs 100ms for humans.
With no other changes to the hardware past the v3 ASIC, Autopilot can capture and process in excess of 2,000 frames per second, an increase of ten-fold.
That frame rate should give fsd a 0.5 ms detection time vs at best 100 ms for a human. It takes a human another 100 to 200 ms to actually take action once it has detected something.
Even if the cameras are capturing at, let's say 120 hz, that's still 8ms vs 100ms for humans.
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