FSD Blows Through Stop Signs

[CharleyBC]

FSDß just ran a stop sign for me yesterday.

I was on a street running parallel to a railroad, the railroad being on my left. This street forms the leg of a T, and there's a stop sign. FSDß stopped at this first stop sign appropriately. It then turned left. There is then immediately another stop sign on the new street to make you stop and look before crossing the railroad. (No crossbuck control at this crossing.) FSD was having none of it, and just accelerated across the tracks. There was no train anywhere near, so I let it go to see whether it would chicken out, but it didn't. There's nothing unusual about this stop sign--no special RR markings or anything.

 

[kabin]

I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying that if it was happening to a large percentage of people, or everyone, I'd wager there would be a roll-back (like there has been in the past), or a new update quickly rolled out to fix the cars running stop signs left and right.

We just have to be vigilant as we drive near stop signs to see if the next update resolves it.

And make sure to disengage with the brake or steering so there's a chance of a video capture for the mother ship.

 

[kabin]

Maybe related to the stop sign bug - sometimes after the vehicle stops short at an intersection FSDb haphazardly drives through the intersection as if it already processed and declared the intersection clear/safe for merge/entry.

 

[AtomicD0G]

Maybe related to the stop sign bug - sometimes after the vehicle stops short at an intersection FSDb haphazardly drives through the intersection as if it already processed and declared the intersection clear/safe for merge/entry.

I've had this happen to me so often since my last update that now I'm expecting it whenever it stops short. Most of the time it is not safe - especially when the crossing street view from where it stopped is obstructed. This and the stop sign bug has definitely reduced my confidence and comfort.

 

[mhan00]

I understand it's beta but I think we should have things like stopping at stop signs ironed out by now. I am fine with regressions when they are switching to a new way of doing things like with this last version the lane selection is much worse in my area than it has been in a long time but I am aware they are working on new lane logic so that's fine. My main concern with things like the stop sign issue is more that there is a possibility it's not a software problem.

The problem is that it is harder than you think to have it properly stop at every stop sign without it also improperly stopping for an erroneously perceived stop sign. Frenchie had vids where in Chicago they have two stop signs, one on each end of the intersection, and the Tesla would try to stop in the middle of the road to obey the second stop sign. Then there are issues where there are parallel side roads or angled roads that have stop signs that you aren’t supposed to obey on the main road or freeway. And that’s just stop signs. Hand coding in rules for the car to follow that works Everytime in every scenario is really complex and potentially impossible, which is why Elon has also said that they might need to crack general AI for it to work. This FSD *sugar* is hard because the real world has so many different scenarios and weird infrastructure and it’s why Elon has so much egg on his face from continually saying FSD is about to be a solved problem year after year.

 

[KArnold]

Good wisdom from @mhan00.

stopped at this first stop sign appropriately. It then turned left. There is then immediately another stop sign on the new street

I've had this happen to me so often since my last update that now I'm expecting it whenever it stops short.

Maybe related to the stop sign bug - sometimes after the vehicle stops short at an intersection FSDb haphazardly drives through the intersection as if it already processed and declared the intersection clear/safe for merge/entry.

In this case it may be a "proximity" thing too. In one of our downtown streets there are 2 stoplights only about 100' apart. The lights are timed so the far light changes first, about 5 seconds apart. In my sample of 1, FSDb came to the near light as it started to change to yellow - perfectly continued. But we are immediately facing the far light which is red for many seconds. It didn't even slow (no leading vehicle). I did not see what the screen said but I do know FSD normally displays both sets of lights.

In all cases, it appears to use the "approval to proceed" to both stops as one, instead of separate events?

That double stoplight thing even on a green is still a decent slowdown area too. Chuck did a video on that scenario.

 

[2101Guy]

I love this thread title. It’s the type that if I were to have used it, mods would have edited it.

 

[redmunds]

And make sure to disengage with the brake or steering so there's a chance of a video capture for the mother ship.

When FSDb is running a Stop sign, make sure to disengage with Brakes! Disengaging with steering will only disengage steering, not acceleration (i.e. it changes from FSDb to TACC and beep a single time to indicate this), so you will probably continue to run the Stop sign!

 

[Vector2]

I have had multiple instances now where FSD doesn't slow down at all, and would have gone right through a STOP sign had I not intervened. On every instance, the STOP is perfectly visible (no obstructions, curves, rises in road etc), and does appear on the visualization rendering on the screen. This last time was on a perfectly straight two lane country road with a 4 way STOP. Did not slow down at all. With the new update I have lost the ability to send the incident to the dev team. Has anyone else witnessed this behavior?

Just to make sure we've done the "did you turn your computer on?" thing....when I first installed fsd beta, traffic light and stop sign control was turned off and it took me a day to realize it.

 

[JulienW]

Just to make sure we've done the "did you turn your computer on?" thing....when I first installed fsd beta, traffic light and stop sign control was turned off and it took me a day to realize it.

Those are only active when you are NOT using FSD Beta and has nothing to do with FSD Beta.

 

[nvx1977]

When FSDb is running a Stop sign, make sure to disengage with Brakes! Disengaging with steering will only disengage steering, not acceleration (i.e. it changes from FSDb to TACC and beep a single time to indicate this), so you will probably continue to run the Stop sign!

Hopefully this is just the automatic reaction from any driver regardless of ADAS state. "Oh sh*t I'm about to run a stop sign. Quick, slam on the brakes!" The disengage method should be directly relevant to the behavior at hand. If there's a need to slow/stop, use the brake. If the car is turning close to a curb, disengage with the wheel. It's just driving, and it's the safest course of action for you and everyone around you.

Stalk disengagements are for situations where you anticipate a problem with the system coming up, or you're just ready to take over and drive on your own.

 

[SouthFLGuy]

Autopilot is still in Beta. Lots of work is going on to make it true FSD. The car has the equipment to become FSD, but still needs lots more software and experience to take on full autonomy. Every document and statement from Tesla says the human must be able to take over manual control in difficult situations or if necessary for any reason. Autopilot does best on center lanes of limited access highways in easy situations. Expecting it to be 100% in every driving condition is unrealistic. It handles intersections better if there is another car in front of you.

As time goes on, it will get better and better and easier to rely on.

This thing has been in Beta forever. Listen, they removed radar (apparently are now bringing it back)because of supply shortages and cost savings - they knew that Tesla Vision would never be a reality (at least I'm sure their engineers knew). It will never work on vision only. The current fleet does not have what it takes to be full FSD. Full FSD has been a marketing scheme.

 

[flyhighboi20]

I know it's frustrating and sometimes difficult to understand / accept as the updates roll out. All I can do is tell you that stop signs in my area are working just fine on 69.3.1. I tested a street near me with 3 stop signs back to back last week, and it handled them just fine. If there was a bug in the software on stop signs, it would be happening for more people / everyone. I'm sure it will get locked down as updates roll out. But like you said, future updates may break it again, and it will get tweaked and refined and fixed again on whatever new neural net they implement.

I, personally, just roll with it. If an update breaks something, I adapt and drive accordingly until the next update. For me, I've seen consistent improvement over the last year, and that's what's important.

I don't think in my case it's a situation where it's a bug, I think the stops simply aren't mapped and the cameras/computer/car is unable to see and react to a stop sign in time if you are travelling at speed. I think this is why it happens to people most often on country type roads where the map data is very limited (~40% of the roads around here have incorrect or missing speed limit data). I am also not indicating that this is a new behavior with this update, the stop sign thing has always been happening and like I said I reported some of the stops and they get "fixed" although it's just though map data because I reported 2/3 that are identical type of situation and 2/3 the car now stops but the 3rd will blow right through. This update has had the most improvement for me around here of any update in recent memory even with a few new issues. I certainly don't envy their task, there are so many edge cases I don't know how they will ever really be able to get to no driver needed on all roads and certainly not by the time it's time for me to buy a new car. But at least it's fun, although sometimes frustrating to play with.